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Christianity and homophobia

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Christianity and homophobia
    Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 12:27

Modern-day bigots like the Westboro Baptist Church advocate the persecution of gay people and blame them for the deaths of US soldiers. Christian homophobia seems to have ancient roots: the bible recommends punishing homosexuals with death, and Jesus (or St Paul) said gays couldn't enter heaven. Why were the ancient Jews and early Christians so hostile to gay people and fornicators? Was it out of desire to increase the population, or because premarital sex was thought to spread disease?
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 13:45


It is not a technical issue Nick. It is a moral issue. That's the same as the concept of decency which means that people don't walk around naked in the street... You could do it and you wouldn't technically harm anyone but it's deemed immoral.

I personally think that there is nothing wrong with being homosexual as this would be something out of a person's control. Having homosexual relations is another matter altogether.

The Westboro Baptist church is freaking intolerant. They need to chill out a little bit. Try and spread their message through ''nicer'' means rather than accusing everyone and making judgement calls.


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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 16:29
Originally posted by Baal Melqart



It is not a technical issue Nick. It is a moral issue. That's the same as the concept of decency which means that people don't walk around naked in the street... You could do it and you wouldn't technically harm anyone but it's deemed immoral.

I personally think that there is nothing wrong with being homosexual as this would be something out of a person's control. Having homosexual relations is another matter altogether.

The Westboro Baptist church is freaking intolerant. They need to chill out a little bit. Try and spread their message through ''nicer'' means rather than accusing everyone and making judgement calls.


 
I concur.
 
Their worse then that. Their as borderline, if not over the lines, as any intolerant, bigoted, piece of shit, cult-group I have ever observed.
 
I am not a young man anymore and my personal morals can not accept the practice or the lifestyle or the politics associated with it. But my years of service to my nation taught me that like them or not there is ntl; a legal and constitutional rights question, dealing with human and civil rights, that must be acknowledged as they historically develope. Which then establishes if I'm to be declared a quasi bigot because of my moral convictions in this sense.....then as a historian, I'm at least attempting to be an objective one. And that aint easy.
 
AS I keep goddamn noting around here........ when people confuse subjective morality interpretations with objective historical cultural developmental analysis. And no I do not refer to Nick or Alani here. I'm talking about them aforementioned quasi-cultists.
 
NONE of them would make a decent pimple on a good historian's ass. Let alone an objective theological one.
 
Amen.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 26-Feb-2013 at 16:34
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  Quote Shamshir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 17:35
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

I personally think that there is nothing wrong with being homosexual as this would be something out of a person's control. Having homosexual relations is another matter altogether.

Masturbating isn't always enough, you know Wink
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 04:23
Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 09:01
Originally posted by TITAN_

Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 
 
Over generalizations do not win you gold ribbons for historical accuracy or context; let alone objectivity in analysis. Presuming your attempting it.
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 11:20
Originally posted by TITAN_

Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 



I wouldn't call it hatred. The opinions of these religions look badly at practicing such sexual practices and it is anyone right to have a perogative on this matter or any other... Disliking homosexual practices is like disliking Thai food or gardening. You have the right not to like it as long as you don't go out of your way to force others to stop doing what they like to do simply because you don't like it. Same goes for dislike of homosexuals simply because of their nature/choice which would be wrong...

To sum it all up, you have the right to dislike anything so long as you don't force others to agree with you. I dislike homosexuality and I have the right to do so but that doesn't automatically mean I hate homosexuals. I hope I've made myself clear.


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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 17:36
While I would agree that some Christians are homophobic in the meaning that they disapprove of homosexual acts and lifestyles, just as a certain number of militant feminists who support gay rights are homophobic in the classical meaning of that term, I do not agree that Christians, per se, are anti-homosexual as pertains to their humanity. They cannot be expected, however, to condone either homosexual acts or life styles. To expect practicing Christians to do so is akin to expecting true believing Pacifists to support war, or militant vegans to support an "Eat More Beef" campaign. 


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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 07:46
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by TITAN_

Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 
 
Over generalizations do not win you gold ribbons for historical accuracy or context; let alone objectivity in analysis. Presuming your attempting it.

Overgeneralizations? Not at all, the Old Testament is full of pure hatred, perversions and abominations. I could post a million pieces of evidence here to support this. Death to those who work on Saturdays, death to homosexuals, etc. etc. 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 07:47
Originally posted by lirelou

While I would agree that some Christians are homophobic in the meaning that they disapprove of homosexual acts and lifestyles, just as a certain number of militant feminists who support gay rights are homophobic in the classical meaning of that term, I do not agree that Christians, per se, are anti-homosexual as pertains to their humanity. They cannot be expected, however, to condone either homosexual acts or life styles. To expect practicing Christians to do so is akin to expecting true believing Pacifists to support war, or militant vegans to support an "Eat More Beef" campaign. 



I didn't talk about people but ideologies... 
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 18:45
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by lirelou

While I would agree that some Christians are homophobic in the meaning that they disapprove of homosexual acts and lifestyles, just as a certain number of militant feminists who support gay rights are homophobic in the classical meaning of that term, I do not agree that Christians, per se, are anti-homosexual as pertains to their humanity. They cannot be expected, however, to condone either homosexual acts or life styles. To expect practicing Christians to do so is akin to expecting true believing Pacifists to support war, or militant vegans to support an "Eat More Beef" campaign. 



I didn't talk about people but ideologies... 



Right, so if you're talking about ideologies then please explain your objection. Is it bigotry, according to you, if they have a belief that committing homosexual acts is wrong or are you talking about inciting hatred/segregation of homosexuals and punishing them?


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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 19:24
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by TITAN_

Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 
 
Over generalizations do not win you gold ribbons for historical accuracy or context; let alone objectivity in analysis. Presuming your attempting it.

Overgeneralizations? Not at all, the Old Testament is full of pure hatred, perversions and abominations. I could post a million pieces of evidence here to support this. Death to those who work on Saturdays, death to homosexuals, etc. etc. 
 
To old and to lame..... as the OT and NT were not the sole reasons for exclusion of homosexuality as an anathema. Developing dogma..which incidentally eliminated and continues to eliminate, much of what the atheist would promote to the contrary and yet deny....is there as well..... as for pure hatred? An over generalisation whether you wish to admit it or not.
 
My personal objections aside...did I not admit that the cultural development and acceptance will not be determined by the people? And that rights civil and humanitarian, must still be examined and acknowledged. Those who love freedom and the Constitution can deal with the traditional versus the change. Nor am I alone.
 
Unless of course, you perceive me to be a feigned, intellectual old fraudWacko; who merely spews nonsense according to a party line. You wont be the first. Unwilling to recognise the historic and culture development and continuing enlargement of acceptance of homosexuality as it has developed. What was once accepted in one place once and later was not in another is the history of societal development, enlightened expressionism, modifications of theological dogmatic expressions and a developement of civil liberties.  And the ongoing attempts to secularise the world community.
Which is not new.
 
But if you think I'm a fraud then say so....have the guts to do so.....don't hide behind the admonitions of others. LOL
 
The bl...homosexuality was admired or accepted in many contextual eras, over many periods, in many locations, for many reasons. Which may or may not have changed. Such was the case of the intent of the op insofar as the development of Christianity-Judaism-Islam et.al until recently. To either a greater or lesser degree...theology specific.
 
Whether I approve of it is immaterial...it ntl is a historic reality.
 
So either I'm an old fraud....or I'm an objective, as possible, historian trained to know it....and admit to it's development.
 
You choose.
 
Personally I don't give a rats ass damn. I'm to old to worry about wannabe critics.
 
 
But you choose...declare me a fraud and gawdamn be done... or go away wtih your overgenalizations and inabilities to to recognise objectivism versus subjectivism. Your not a historian. You might be one day but ya damn sure aint one now.LOL


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 28-Feb-2013 at 19:37
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 21:45
I just, throw my hands up in mock despair at this entire thread.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 04:03
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by lirelou

While I would agree that some Christians are homophobic in the meaning that they disapprove of homosexual acts and lifestyles, just as a certain number of militant feminists who support gay rights are homophobic in the classical meaning of that term, I do not agree that Christians, per se, are anti-homosexual as pertains to their humanity. They cannot be expected, however, to condone either homosexual acts or life styles. To expect practicing Christians to do so is akin to expecting true believing Pacifists to support war, or militant vegans to support an "Eat More Beef" campaign. 



I didn't talk about people but ideologies... 



Right, so if you're talking about ideologies then please explain your objection. Is it bigotry, according to you, if they have a belief that committing homosexual acts is wrong or are you talking about inciting hatred/segregation of homosexuals and punishing them?



The right/wrong debate leaves me cold when it comes to sexuality between consending adults.
Punishment for any sexual acts between adults is also ludicrous, not only according to western values but also according to values of nations of the far east.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 04:15
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by TITAN_

Unfortunately, the religions of the Middle East (the 3 main monotheistic religions that derive from cults and mythologies of the Middle East) are full of hatred towards minorities and sexual preferences. Classical European religions (Graeco-Roman religions) were tolerant and liberal. Unfortunately they did not prevail. I am an atheist by the way.... I 'd rather have a Pantheon in my neighbourhood than a church! I am not against religions as long as they are liberal and open-minded. 
 
Over generalizations do not win you gold ribbons for historical accuracy or context; let alone objectivity in analysis. Presuming your attempting it.

Overgeneralizations? Not at all, the Old Testament is full of pure hatred, perversions and abominations. I could post a million pieces of evidence here to support this. Death to those who work on Saturdays, death to homosexuals, etc. etc. 
 
To old and to lame..... as the OT and NT were not the sole reasons for exclusion of homosexuality as an anathema. Developing dogma..which incidentally eliminated and continues to eliminate, much of what the atheist would promote to the contrary and yet deny....is there as well..... as for pure hatred? An over generalisation whether you wish to admit it or not.
 
My personal objections aside...did I not admit that the cultural development and acceptance will not be determined by the people? And that rights civil and humanitarian, must still be examined and acknowledged. Those who love freedom and the Constitution can deal with the traditional versus the change. Nor am I alone.
 
Unless of course, you perceive me to be a feigned, intellectual old fraudWacko; who merely spews nonsense according to a party line. You wont be the first. Unwilling to recognise the historic and culture development and continuing enlargement of acceptance of homosexuality as it has developed. What was once accepted in one place once and later was not in another is the history of societal development, enlightened expressionism, modifications of theological dogmatic expressions and a developement of civil liberties.  And the ongoing attempts to secularise the world community.
Which is not new.
 
But if you think I'm a fraud then say so....have the guts to do so.....don't hide behind the admonitions of others. LOL
 
The bl...homosexuality was admired or accepted in many contextual eras, over many periods, in many locations, for many reasons. Which may or may not have changed. Such was the case of the intent of the op insofar as the development of Christianity-Judaism-Islam et.al until recently. To either a greater or lesser degree...theology specific.
 
Whether I approve of it is immaterial...it ntl is a historic reality.
 
So either I'm an old fraud....or I'm an objective, as possible, historian trained to know it....and admit to it's development.
 
You choose.
 
Personally I don't give a rats ass damn. I'm to old to worry about wannabe critics.
 
 
But you choose...declare me a fraud and gawdamn be done... or go away wtih your overgenalizations and inabilities to to recognise objectivism versus subjectivism. Your not a historian. You might be one day but ya damn sure aint one now.LOL

You repeat the word fraud way too much. I wonder why???
I never even implied you were a fraud, what kind of rhetoric is that?

The debate is not objectivism vs subjectivism here. The debate is about homophobia and christianity, while it should be homophobia and the 3 main monotheistic religions (Jews, Christians and muslims) which have something in common: The Old Testament.

The Old Testament, undeniably and undoubtedly, is full of direct hatred against homosexuality. That doesn't mean an atheist cannot be homophobic as well, BUT it surely means that homophobia is clearly promoted by all 3 Abrahamic religions.

On the contrary, the old religions of Europe (Roman & Greek) were tolerant and embraced free human sexuality like ...orgies LOL. which revived in the 60s with the hippy movementEmbarrassed


So, the bottom line is this: The old religions of Europe were much closer to liberal and open-minded ideologies than abrahamic religions, which were imported from the Middle East.

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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 09:41
Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 12:31
Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 12:40
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!
 
You're wrong Titan. I'm a believer in Christianity, and quite grounded in it. Our example is to love as Christ loved. Just because we know the consequences of other people's actions (Or even attitudes), doesn't mean that we WANT that consequence to follow. The problem with citing the Old Testament as a hate mongering book is that it is based on preserving Israel so it will produce the Messiah so he could save all of Mankind. (That's Jesus to us, the Believers). Hence why so many harsh rules were enforced.
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 19:03
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!



I'm not gonna comment on the 'homosexuals must be killed' bit because I don't like to start criticising other religions and starting flame wars.

What I will say is that I disagree with you 100% on your first statement which is purely false and only represents your personal take on the matter. Yes, you can hate homosexuality, even loathe it but still love homosexual individuals and respect them. Your statement is completely invalid.

I hate crime, I hate murder but I don't necessarily harbour ill feelings towards murderers because I believe that they can be rehabilitated and I wish them to repent and walk on the straight path instead.

Sure, homosexuals may object to me wanting them to stop acting homosexual but then that's my perogative and I have the full right to hold such a position whilst not hating homosexual individuals per se.


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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2013 at 03:36
Originally posted by TITAN_


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused
Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!


This is not true. You can hate a behaviour (homosexuality) without hating the practitioners (homosexuals). I hate mathematics, but I don't hate mathematicians; I only hate what they do. A homosexual is more than just the sexual act engaged in, despite how strongly the personal or political image might be defined by it.

From a Christian perspective, you hate the sin, not the sinner. The Old Testament does say "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13), but the Old Testament is not Christianity (if it was, then Christianity would be Judaism and not Christianity). The New Testament of Christ is exactly that - a 'new' testament, that replaced the 'old' one. It does retain the view that homosexuality is a sin, but no longer upholds the idea of killing a sinner, because everyone is a sinner at some level (cf. the adulterous woman who Jesus defended from being stoned: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' which shamed her accusers into releasing her(John 8:2-11). The old Mosaic laws are still honoured, but given a different perspective that alters their application.


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