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Shamshir
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Topic: Why is history kinder to Mongols than to Nazis? Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 05:58 |
The title is self explanatory.
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 07:01 |
The honest answer, Shamshir, is probably time, and maybe expectations too. Expectations as the Nazis are in a comparatively recent time, and so close to how we are developmentally speaking, that it sickens us to think how a modern thinking mind can be so easily turned into such an abomination.
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Shamshir
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 04:16 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
The honest answer, Shamshir, is probably time, and maybe expectations too. Expectations as the Nazis are in a comparatively recent time, and so close to how we are developmentally speaking, that it sickens us to think how a modern thinking mind can be so easily turned into such an abomination. |
So, say 300 years from now the Nazis' crimes would be considered a normal event in history just like those of the Mongols? Our moral code shouldn't be bound by time and space. Either demonize both Nazis and Mongols or don't do it altogether. Don't you agree?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 06:33 |
It can be different in the different cultures, the southern part of Tehran is still called Nazi Abad (built by Nazis), you can look at Nazicenter website to see how Iranians respect Nazis!
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Shamshir
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 06:43 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
It can be different in the different cultures, the southern part of Tehran is still called Nazi Abad (built by Nazis), you can look at Nazicenter website to see how Iranians respect Nazis! |
There are rotten apples in every basket, and Iran is not an exception.
Edited by Shamshir - 22-Feb-2013 at 06:46
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 16:50 |
Very good question Shamshir. I think the reason is fairly simple. Nazis did horrible things and murdered people because of an ideology, one which placed them as eugenically superior to other races. Mongols did a lot of horrible things similar to what the Nazis did but they only killed the people's they conquered to instil fear in hopes of conquering more land. They didn't gas or experiment on people and surely didn't kill people because they viewed themselves as racially superior to anyone... Which is exactly why they later on soaked up the religion/culture of those they conquered.
The Mongols were a result of harsh life lived in the Steppes, thirst for opulence and a charismatic leader.... Nazis were a result of something very un-natural and sickening to the average person..
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Timidi mater non flet
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 18:59 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
The honest answer, Shamshir, is probably time, and maybe expectations too. Expectations as the Nazis are in a comparatively recent time, and so close to how we are developmentally speaking, that it sickens us to think how a modern thinking mind can be so easily turned into such an abomination. | Barbarism was a common and expected behavior among conquerors in the time of the Mongols, but not during WWII.
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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lirelou
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Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 20:43 |
To expand what MM has said here: "Barbarism was a common and expected behavior among conquerors in the time of the Mongols, but not during WWII."
In the 19th Century Germany reunified and rose to become one of the major contributors to Western civilization in the arts and sciences. No one expected it to buy into the theatrical barbarism of the Nazis, nor to seriously contemplate the extermination of Europes Jewery, much less to put an actual program for their extermination into practice.
If the German civilization could give rise to such an anathema, then what of the rest of us? The Mongols, on the other hand, were barbarians from the start. Writers such as Harold Lamb could give a dramatic enough account on life in the Gobi during their time to make their barbarism understandable.
So it arises from a perceived difference in their respective levels of civilization, rather than being a double standard in judgment.
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Edited by lirelou - 22-Feb-2013 at 20:43
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Nick1986
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Posted: 03-Mar-2013 at 19:42 |
Unlike the Nazis, the Mongols didn't wipe out entire races as general practise. They only committed genocide if local rulers refused to cooperate
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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TITAN_
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Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:32 |
The question remains.... Who killed more people? The Mongols or the Nazis? Both took the lives of millions, that's for sure...
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Nick1986
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Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 20:36 |
Probably the Nazis because they had guns, bombs and poison gas
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:10 |
Originally posted by Shamshir
The title is self explanatory.
| I go with Alani's response.
Cultural mores and standards changed considerably from the time of the Mongols to the time of the Nazis. Previously everyone behaved that way, and then by the 20th century no one was supposed to behave that way any longer.
Interesting that you did not make your comparison to the Asian WWII Axis power, the Japanese, probably a closer comparison than Asiatic Mongols to Western European Germanics.
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:15 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Probably the Nazis because they had guns, bombs and poison gas
| That's a question of scale, and an industrialized nation with modern armaments is going to do better on that basis, but lacking modern industrialization and weapons of mass destruction would give the Mongols points for sheer ferocity, IMHO.
One factor not yet considered is the capacity to hold and feed and control large numbers of captives. The Mongols had neither the time, the resources nor the inclination to keep large numbers of people around other than as possibly slaves. They weren't farmers, so feeding large numbers of captives would have been problematic, and they were highly mobile, so keepoi9ng a lot of captives would not have been an attractive option, either. Far easier to just slaughter everyone, gather up the loot and the women and move on.
Edited by Mountain Man - 05-Mar-2013 at 13:16
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 13:20 |
Originally posted by Shamshir
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
The honest answer, Shamshir, is probably time, and maybe expectations too. Expectations as the Nazis are in a comparatively recent time, and so close to how we are developmentally speaking, that it sickens us to think how a modern thinking mind can be so easily turned into such an abomination. |
So, say 300 years from now the Nazis' crimes would be considered a normal event in history just like those of the Mongols?
Our moral code shouldn't be bound by time and space. Either demonize both Nazis and Mongols or don't do it altogether. Don't you agree?
| It's not that easy, nor do I think that 300 years from now Nazi crimes wil be considered normal. That's a quantum leap in logic unsubstantiated by anything. While we acknowledge that the behavior of the Mongols was "normal" for their time and culture, we still do not accept it despite a much greater passage of time.
Acknowledging cultural differences does not equate to acceptance, nor to indifference.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 06-Mar-2013 at 19:02 |
Didn't Genghis force the prisoners to accompany his army so it appeared larger? If a city surrendered without a fight, the Mongols were more likely to be merciful
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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baydlag
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Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 01:29 |
If Mongolians had killed local peoples as Nazis murdering Slavs Mongol empire or invasion couldn't be so successful. I think the Mongol army violence and murdering were only for make fear for next target nations or rebels.There is a legend: Once Genghis Khan and his generals were planned to massacre all the northern Chinese. Then Yelu Chucai said who will pay you taxes and tribute. So Genghis Khan changed his mind.
Edited by baydlag - 15-Mar-2013 at 01:52
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JuMong
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Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 15:20 |
Interesting question...
One thing we have to consider is the basic development of ethics over time. Conquest and building empires may have been acceptable at one time, but our basic concept of what's acceptable has change. Ideas like "ethic cleansing" and "genocide" are very modern conceits. What may have been acceptable terms of war at one time is now considered war crimes.
One interesting point to make,
Nazis did admire the Mongols and much of their famed techniques like "blitzkrieg" was based on Mongolian techniques involving their superior mobility based on their horsemanship.
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Auggie
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Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:08 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
It can be different in the different cultures, the southern part of Tehran is still called Nazi Abad (built by Nazis), you can look at Nazicenter website to see how Iranians respect Nazis! |
I have to wonder if the current Iranian-Israeli state of affairs has something to do with all this. It just may be that a natural reaction to decades-long Israeli bullying and hegemony in the region is the root cause of the supposed Iranian obsession with German national socialism.
I do know that several years back Iran hosted an international conference on the Holocaust and whether or not it occurred as presented in the "official", never to be questioned, etched in granite version given us by Jewry and the survivors of the so-called death camps of eastern Poland. Naturally, regarding the conference, we here in the US heard nothing whatsoever of the details, what was actually discussed. Rather, our "impartial" news media informed/indoctrinated us that those no-good Holocaust deniers, the Iranians, were hosting one.
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Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.
- Voltaire
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red clay
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Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:20 |
Auggie, tread lightly. Holocaust deniers here are slow roasted, then eaten.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Auggie
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Posted: 24-Jun-2013 at 13:34 |
Well I really have no fear of being roasted and eaten by board members in regards to Holocaust revisionism, but is it the administartion's position that that should be the treatment received by those who would dare question certain historical events? I would hope not...
Edited by Auggie - 24-Jun-2013 at 13:36
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Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.
- Voltaire
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