Why FYROM should not be called "Macedonia"

Isn't the term Macedonian language purely political, as it is in some cases classified as a mere dialect of Bulgarian?

It's not classified. It is Bulgarian dialect.

Bulgaria has three parts - Mizya /North Bulgaria + Dobrudja/, Trakiya /Thrace/ and Makedoniya /Macedonia/. They have local dialects, but except the Macedonians /who living at Macedonia/ all they recognized them as Bulgarians. BTW just one fact - the last months of the 2004 about 20 000 Macedonians requested and recieved Bulgarian citizenship after they've answered on questions like "do you consider yourself for bulgarian citizen". To recieve Bulgarian citizenship they also must prove their bulgarian origin

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Turkish/Ottoman identity was/is determined by language (Turkish), religion (muslim) and culture. Not by genetic descent, although the Turkish nation-state half-heartedly attempts to do this. Mehmed the Conqueror was not a Bulgarian. Nor were any of the Ottoman Emperors were anything other than Ottoman/Turkish.     If you'd called him a 'Turk', he would have killed you, though. This is because for the Ottomans 'Turk' meant 'Turcoman', who are shiite/ alewite nomads, not sunni-sedantary.

No, the Turkish identity was determined by ancestry, only fatherside, and his father etc. It is like Jews descending from their mother sides. But you are right that unfortunately, Ottomans denied their identities and tried to be "caesars". And they didnt like us (Turkmens) at all. We were just human sources left starving, who were always tried to be settled, so rebelled lots of times.

Edited by Oguzoglu

Last time I checked Kurds had no independent state anywhere. When they have one they should call it whatever they want. Kurdistan, Kurdish Disneyland, Litte Texas, all are fine and dandy...

By the way, the story that UK is called UK because de Gaulle was worried about Bretagne was ridiculous. Great Britain is the name of the island, UK is the political union with the island of GB and Northern Ireland. Besides France and Britain don't have paranoid delusions unlike the Balkan nations.

No, the Turkish identity was determined by ancestry, only fatherside, and his father etc. It is like Jews descending from their mother sides. But you are right that unfortunately, Ottomans denied their identities and tried to be "caesars". And they didnt like us (Turkmens) at all. We were just human sources left starving, who were always tried to be settled, so rebelled lots of times.

This is why I mentioned how Turkish identity is determined. Not because I am offended by what some people think about Mehmed II. Because some Turks here have ethnic purity fantasies.

So according to Oguzoglu, the Ottomans were not our ancestors, majority of the people in Turkey today (who are not shiite or Turkmen), plus historical figures such as Sinan the Architect, Barbarossa, countless artists (including Nazim Hikmet- the most important, whose grandfather was a Polish convert), scientists, and even Ataturk were not Turks... I find this denial of roots and history pathetic and shameful. All because they've adopted European ideas of nation-state. Luckily most people in Turkey know where their roots lie.

Originally posted by iskenderani Originally posted by vulkan02 Well you said it.. the Kurds have never had a country meanwhile the Slavic Macedonians do. I doubt Greece will ever recognize them but then again its what the EU and the USA say about that truly counts. So , as the time of ur request to join EU sometime in the future , comes soon .... u will have to make ur choise....Think well .... think twice and above all think wisely....One way or the other ur little nation does not have a bright future due to internal problems... Isk.

im sorry you took it offensively but i didn't mean it that way. I was simply trying to distinguish between Macedonia (FYROM whatever u wanna call it)and the Kurds. At least Macedonia was a republic under Yugoslavia but Kurds are simply a different kinda people living in Turkey, Iraq etc.  My little nation controls most of what the world including Greece and the EU has to say by the way. Im an American citizen not an Albanian citizen, i was simply born there long ago. Besides the economy there had the strongest growth in the last couple of years so i dont think you could arrive at that conclusion immediately by simply pointing out our internal problems. Every nation has internal problems including USA or whatever.

Here you can really duke it out over this topic!!
Say hi to Nikos, Tony, Stefanos and Nikas (Greeks) for me while you are there- Mkont and Pelister (FYROMites) to!!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/22270

Edited by eaglecap

1.  Recorded history refers to an ancient kingdom of Macedonia beginning in the 7th century B.C.E.

2. The name "Macedonia" was given by its people and in Greek it means "Highland".

3. Many ancient sources-historians, the Bible, the Torrah,  geographers etc. refer to Macedonia as a
   Greek kingdom. It is also mentioned by Homer and by the Historian-geographer Strabo who states:
   "Macedonia is Greece as well."

4. 0ver 5,000 excavated relics of the ancient Macedonian kingdom carry only Greek inscriptions.

5. The ancient Macedonians participated in the Olympic Games and only Greeks could do that.
   They believed in the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks. Their kingdom's coins carried Greek inscriptions only.
   The Palace floor in the ancient Macedonian capital of Pella depicts Greek deities and Greek
   mythological figures with Greek language inscriptions.

6. Mt. Olympus, home of the Greek Gods, was located in Macedonia.
    At the foot of the mountain, excavations unearthed the ancient Macedonian burial grounds with
    Greek inscriptions.

7. The Greeks were the only people in ancient time to build theaters. Four have already been found in Macedonia.

8. Apostle Paul refers to Greeks receiving him when visiting Macedonia.
    He was preaching in Greek and his epistles  were written in Greek, the language of inhabitants.

9.  Alexander the Great-king of Macedonia and leader of the united Greek city-States-disseminated
     Greek culture and civilization during his campaign against  the Persian Empire as well as in Europe,
     Africa and Asia.

10. There never was a "Macedonian language" just as there never was an "Athenian Epirotic",
     "Theban" "Boeotian" etc. All city-states of Greece the Greek language with various dialects.
      Present day Bulgaria-an idiom Of the Bulgarian language is spoken by the pseudo-Macedonians
      recognizes neither a Macedonian language nor a Macedonian ethnicity. Most of the present" day
      Slavs in the country of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (F.Y.R.O.M.) are of Bulgarian descent.

11. Demosthenes, the Athenian orator and a fanatic super patriot, never called the Macedonians "barbarians"
      only their king, Phillip, and that because he could not stomach the passing of Greek supremacy from Athens
      to Macedonia. His Athenian orator rival, Isocrates, sent a letter to King Phillip exhorting and imploring him
      to unite all Greeks and seeking vengeance to lead them against Persia, their common enemy.

12. Ilinden, the site of an insurrection of, supposedly, all races residing in the geographic area of ancient
     Macedonia against the Ottoman Empire, was planned and instigated by the Bulgarian Government
     whose dream it was to annex all of it and gain access to the Aegean Sea. Categorical evidence of this
     the many existing reports of European ambassadors and counsels which were dispatched to their
     respective   Foreign Ministries. The pseudo-Macedonians appropriated this unsuccessful event of Ilinden
     most of the victims were Greek-from the Bulgarians and present it as their own heroic attempt to gain
     "freedom for Macedonia."

13. There never existed a country called "Macedonia" since the destruction of ancient kingdom by the Romans in 168 B.C.. Any reference to a division of "Macedonia" between Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria is a false and ludicrous statement. The geographical area of Macedonia from the advent of the Slavs in the 6th century A.D. until the First Balkan War of 1912 a period of 1500 years was populated by Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Jews and Gypsies and since the 14th century A.D. by Turks as well. No census of Roman, Byzantine or Ottoman Empires refers to any "Macedonians". Hence, what  "Macedonia" was divided up?

14. Before it became Yugoslavia, the country was called "KINGDOM OF THE Serbs,
      Croats and Slovenes." No mention of Macedonians.

Edited by strategos

Own religion?! THey used the Greek Gods! Mt Olympus, the HOME OF THE GODS, is in Macedonia! But they didn't use them as gods? What of all the references towards the hellenic gods of Alexander? Are there even any Ruins of the hellenic people in your country at all?

Originally posted by strategos Own religion?! THey used the Greek Gods! Mt Olympus, the HOME OF THE GODS, is in Macedonia! But they didn't use them as gods? What of all the references towards the hellenic gods of Alexander? Are there even any Ruins of the hellenic people in your country at all?

Yeah greek gods they even breating on FOPOG Air,drink FOPOG water

Have you heard for Dios Hetaireios,Gigaia,Aithria,Arotos,Zeirene,Bedy,etc they were macedonian gods

The mt.Olimp is on the border between Macedonia and FOPOG

FOPOGian ruins in Macedonia yes in Chalkidik

Dear FYROMites,
It is one thing to dispute about a name and another to exhibit nationalistic and expansive tendencies and intentions.
Please refrain from doing so if you wish to be taken seriously, otherwise you will be receiving answers either insulting or pejorative, such as the one I personally posted in another thread.
Yes, it is true that there is increasing support in the EU and US for finally naming your country "Macedonia", but this should only make you thoughtful of the heavy cultural burden that this name brings upon your shoulders.
We, as Greeks, if it finally comes to this, will once more give away something of ours with no claim for reimbursement, but this: take good care of what you are being given.

However, until and if that day comes, we are all prepared to back up our claim through dialogue and civil argument and indeed do expect us to do so.