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Salah ad-Din
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Topic: Henry Wirz - Monster or Scapegoat? Posted: 04-Nov-2012 at 15:29 |
Born in Switzerland in 1823, Henry Wirz had already had a colorful life before he emigrated to America in 1848 - he had been imprisoned under obscure circumstances, apparently after participating in a failed German revolution. In America he found work as a doctor before enlisted as a private in a Confederate volunteer unit in 1861.
The next year Wirz was injured and lost use of his right arm at the Battle of Seven Pines, and he was subsequently employed by President Davis 1862-1864 as a minister in Europe. Upon his return to the Confederacy Wirz was given command of Camp Sumter in Georgia, near a railroad depot from which the Camp takes its more infamous name - Andersonville.
One of the largest and most notorious prison camps in the American Civil War, Andersonville was a home to no less than 45,000 Northern POW's, 13,000 of whom died from sickness and disease, neglect and brutality.
Though similar camps with conditions just as hideous existed in the North, they were unsurprisingly forgotten in the wake of the Northern victory in 1865. The conditions in Andersonville became infamous, as did its commander. Charged with war crimes, Henry Wirz was executed in November of 1865, within view of the White House. His hanging was a particularly miserable one - his neck failed to break from the fall, leaving him to suffocate before the watching crowd of soldiers and civilians.
Along with Champ Fergusson, an infamous (and far more indisputably guilty) Confederate guerilla, Wirz was one of only two men executed for war crimes in the aftermath of the Civil War.
Wirz has managed to become, posthumously, one of the more controversial figures of the Civil War. From the year of his execution up to the present, he is a mass-murderering tyrant to some, a scapegoat and a martyr to others.
By the last full year of the Civil War, the Confederacy was bitterly struggling to feed its soldiers - it simply did not have the means to adequately take care of the thousands of prisoners it had acquired. The cessation of prisoner exchanges left the Rebel government 'stuck' with these Yankee captives; in all fairness, it had little other option except to leave them languishing in the prison camps.
Reports on Wirz's behavior at Andersonville were various. Whether he was a decent man who did what he could with what little he was given, and was sacrificed as a convenient scapegoat, or whether he really was an abusive villain that earned his fate, remains a controversial question from the most controversial period in the nation's history.
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2012 at 15:44 |
The code did not exist at Wirtz's time....the code I swore to uphold and defend. Hence all is speculative and subjective. Personally...he was a monster. The defense of a prior offense before it's legislation is a waste of time other then for the pseudo-psychobabblers or obsessive-sycophants appeasers of the Platonic concept of 'universal peace'. Or the revisionists of history....after the fact; not held to the objectivity of the method.
And especially the objective analysis of the contemporary viewpoint of the era. Iow. it's bullshit revisionism. After the fact, in era, is no excuse for a examination for a lack of the ideaologies and law of the day. The question is....was it a violation of the day...not today.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Cryptic
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Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 10:59 |
Originally posted by Salah ad-Din
Wirz was one of only two men executed for war crimes in the aftermath of the Civil War.
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I imagine that had they not been killed in action, Federal forces would have hung Bloody Bill Anderson and William Quantrell as well.
That low number says alot about how the two sides quickly reconciled after a very bitter war and about the character of the Federal government. I think that it is amazing that unlike in most civil wars, there were no mass purges, show trials of "traitors", re-education camps etc. for the losing side. The vast, overwhelming majority of CSA soldiers and even guerillas were allowed to return home in peace.
Originally posted by Salah ad-Din
Along with Champ Fergusson, an infamous (and far more indisputably guilty) Confederate guerilla, |
There is a little bit of Irony with Champ Fergurson as well: The union honored "Tinker Dave" Beatty (a pro union mountain guerilla with an equally viscious reputation) as an "independent scout" and even invited him to testify against Fergurson. Of course Beattys murders of real and imagined pro confederate civilians were forgotten.
Edited by Cryptic - 05-Nov-2012 at 11:31
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Nick1986
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Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 12:31 |
Whether he partook in the atrocities or simply allowed them to happen, he's still a monster
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Azita
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Posted: 08-Nov-2012 at 04:36 |
Monster? Well are these 2 pictures similar in any way? Out of interest how may executions do members think would have occured if the south had won the war? Lincoln was very lenient.
Edited by Azita - 08-Nov-2012 at 04:38
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Cryptic
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Posted: 09-Nov-2012 at 16:51 |
Originally posted by Azita
Out of interest how may executions do members think would have occured if the south had won the war?
Lincoln was very lenient. |
The war operations of the South were defensive and the CSA never attempted to occupy union territory (except as a means to secure defensive positons). Had the CSA won, I doubt there would have been any executions in northeren states as these States never would have been occuppied.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 10-Nov-2012 at 12:07 |
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Nick1986
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Posted: 11-Nov-2012 at 13:46 |
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Azita
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Posted: 14-Nov-2012 at 15:40 |
Originally posted by Cryptic
The war operations of the South were defensive and the CSA never attempted to occupy union territory (except as a means to secure defensive positons). Had the CSA won, I doubt there would have been any executions in northeren states as these States never would have been occuppied. |
Sorry i forgot about this thread. Well I don't have a depth of
knowledge about the american civil war, nor do I wish to have. But just a quick google I
found these points:-
"President" Davies
GENERAL ORDERS,
No. 111. December 24, 1862. 1. That all commissioned
officers in the command of said Benjamin F. Butler be declared not entitled to
be considered as soldiers engaged in honourable warfare but as robbers and
criminals deserving death, and that they and each of them be whenever captured
reserved for execution.
There were the
massacres of union prisoners after the
Battles of Fort Pillow, Centralia
Massacre and the Lawrence Massacre
Libby Prison in
Richmond. seems to be a similar "concentration" camp as was anderson
As for a
defensive war, after the Second Bull Run 1862, General Lee's army
were just twenty-five miles from
Washington.
Anyway, as I said its not my field, but it does seem that
there would have been quite some vengeance if the rebels had won. Azita
Edited by Azita - 14-Nov-2012 at 15:41
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Cryptic
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Posted: 14-Nov-2012 at 17:23 |
Originally posted by Azita
President" Davies GENERAL ORDERS, No. 111. December 24, 1862.
1. That all commissioned officers in the command of said Benjamin F. Butler be declared not entitled to be considered as soldiers engaged in honourable warfare but as robbers and criminals deserving death, and that they and each of them be whenever captured reserved for execution. |
Benjamin "spoons" Butler was known for corruption and was accused of extorting money from both real and imagined confederate civlians in New Orleans. Thus, the charge of banditry.
To my knowledge, that threat of execution was never carried out. Both the union and the confederacy did execute non uniformed, irregular fighters whom they deemed to be "bandits" (and is some cases, they actually were).
Originally posted by Azita
There were the massacres of union prisoners after the Battles of Fort Pillow, Centralia Massacre and the Lawrence Massacre |
Yes, that is true. The crimes at Centralia and Lawrence, however, were committed by Guerillas who were not operating under the Confederate chain of command. References to these crimes should also be viewed against similar crimes commited by pro Union Jay Hawker irregulars or "Red Leg" militants:
Originally posted by Azita
Libby Prison in Richmond. seems to be a similar "concentration" camp as was anderson |
I do not doubt that. But.... union pow camps also had a very high death rate. This death rate existed despite the fact that the union had far more recesources and an intact logistical infrastructure by which to properly care for pows.
Originally posted by Azita
As for a defensive war, after the Second Bull Run 1862, General Lee's army were just twenty-five miles from Washington. |
True, but that is because Virginia (Confederate State) is only 25 miles from Washington .
Edited by Cryptic - 14-Nov-2012 at 17:50
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Salah ad-Din
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Posted: 19-Nov-2012 at 15:41 |
Originally posted by Azita
Well I don't have a depth of knowledge about the american civil war, nor do I wish to have. |
Then why are you posting about it?
Originally posted by Azita
"President" Davies |
I presume you are attempting to refer to Jefferson Davis.
Originally posted by Azita
GENERAL ORDERS, No. 111. December 24, 1862. 1. That all commissioned officers in the command of said Benjamin F. Butler be declared not entitled to be considered as soldiers engaged in honourable warfare but as robbers and criminals deserving death, and that they and each of them be whenever captured reserved for execution. |
The case of 'Beast Butler' was an extreme exception to the rule; you would do well to consider its context.
Originally posted by Azita
Anyway, as I said its not my field, but it does seem that there would have been quite some vengeance if the rebels had won. |
Both sides commited several atrocities, and both had terrible prison camps. The difference is, the Union won, and history is written by the winners. To state that the Confederates would have been more vengeful if they 'won' is a silly generalization - not in the least because a Confederate 'victory' would not have involved occupying conquered territory, merely expelling the North from their own imaginary country.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 20-Nov-2012 at 07:15 |
Originally posted by Salah ad-Din
Originally posted by Azita
Well I don't have a depth of knowledge about the american civil war, nor do I wish to have. |
Then why are you posting about it?
Originally posted by Azita
"President" Davies |
I presume you are attempting to refer to Jefferson Davis.
Originally posted by Azita
GENERAL ORDERS, No. 111. December 24, 1862. 1. That all commissioned officers in the command of said Benjamin F. Butler be declared not entitled to be considered as soldiers engaged in honourable warfare but as robbers and criminals deserving death, and that they and each of them be whenever captured reserved for execution. |
The case of 'Beast Butler' was an extreme exception to the rule; you would do well to consider its context.
Originally posted by Azita
Anyway, as I said its not my field, but it does seem that there would have been quite some vengeance if the rebels had won. |
Both sides commited several atrocities, and both had terrible prison camps. The difference is, the Union won, and history is written by the winners. To state that the Confederates would have been more vengeful if they 'won' is a silly generalization - not in the least because a Confederate 'victory' would not have involved occupying conquered territory, merely expelling the North from their own imaginary country. |
Salah, this isn't Historum. Over here we encourage everyone to participate in threads, regardless of their abilities
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lirelou
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Posted: 20-Nov-2012 at 22:22 |
In re: " The difference is, the Union won, and history is written by the winners."
If there's one war that proved that to be a false truism, it's the American Civil War. The defeated lost no time in putting their version of history to pen and publication.
As for the issue itself, it is a pity that the United States did not try those Confederates who were former officers of the United States military for treason and punish them accordingly. But again, there were cooler heads in the Congress who were more interested in putting the war behind them.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 21-Nov-2012 at 07:39 |
If the US did act more harshly, the resentment in the South would never go away. It would lead to a future rebellon, as happened when Ireland was under British rule
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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