Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Gobekli Tepe

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gobekli Tepe
    Posted: 25-Feb-2012 at 21:52
Plausibility and probability say yes..without answering for Red.
If Shanidar cave can be occupied on and off for 100,000 years, and by neanderthal from 60-80,000BC/BP if ya buy the research of Ralph Solecki and others..why not. And off topic slightly; depending on your viewpoint it might also be the first example of religious ceremonies associated in burials. Case in point Shanidar 4 man and ....according to Melinda Zeder's research and theory based on her finding of Shanidar 10 man..Altho there is a counter that the pollen based evidence might have been introduced by rodents.
 
And it's another fine example of what I stated above.....''with major natural disasters as a contributor to the collapse of the age in this region then most historians and archaeologists..In other words multiplicity of cause saw the collapse...not precisely singularity as can be readily identified.''
 
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 01:20
Bulding a hill of dirt over sacred objects was done in Ancient Thrace with some of the royal tombs - the tombs were build and after this an artificial mound was piled on them, this is connected with seeing the mountians as sacred, hence putting a human-build structure and making it a hill was putting it is the "sacred space". The mountain was considered one of the symbols of the mother Goddess-Earth/Nature. In teh Thracian Orphism the sacred initiantions were done in a cave under a mountain - almos literally in the "womb of Earth/Goddess".

Hence, the deliberate burying can be seen as putting the whole temple or whatever we may call it in the "sacred space" and in this way making it "really sacred". Mountains of dirt had been made in other places, China. North America. The Egyptian pyramids are nothing but artificial mountains that contain the Pharaoh's tomb to put it in the "sacred space".


Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 01:38
It was connected with their "sense of order":content the Mother and order will stay preserved on Earth!
In Egypt pharaoh communicated with Mother and even dead would have preserved Her anger against their
people.Cult could be started with Human presence on Earth.Gobekli  shows us institutionalized religion with
well developed symbolic&religious objects for it.
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 01:55
Yes, the only clearly identifyable deity on Gobelki Tepe is Mother Goddess. There is a bull too, and this is the combination which is found in Catal Huyuk also - Mother-Goddess and the bull.
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 02:23
My syllables says that in their concept of universe,Bull or cattle1.caries mother's head or 2.bull has mother
head.We talked about it before."Other" gods&goddess were Her appearances on Earth,better said  reincarnation forms.We are all part of Her reincarnation("Ri").Monotheistic religious cult dominate from the beginning of our civilization.


Edited by medenaywe - 27-Feb-2012 at 15:19
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 02:47
Yes, what you call "her appearances" I call "Mother-Goddess aspects", it's the same thing. Mother-Goddess is Nature-seen-as-one, hence monotheistic religious cult/faith, /no matter what word we are going to use/.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 10:13
Originally posted by Nick1986

That's an interesting idea Red. So Gobekli Tepe was just a small outpost of a larger, more advanced civilisation?
 
Or what was left of one.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Drusin View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Feb-2012
Location: usa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 11:35
I'm in agreement here about the site being a part of a larger network and community.

Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2012 at 19:04
This changes everything we know about the Stone Age. If early man smelted bronze that early then reverted to stone tools, it's possible Gobekli Tepi was the main trading center for this valuable commodity. Or perhaps they were the first empire, ruling over their more primitive neighbors until they were overthrown and the secrets of bronze forgotten?
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2012 at 10:35
Mt Toba erupted approx. 75,000 ybp. reducing humans to pockets of survivors totaling less than 10,000.  However, considering our civilization evolved in less than 15,000 years,  there's 60,000 years left, plenty of time for an entire civilization to have evolved and vanish.   Toba's destruction was pretty total, there's no clear evidence left behind of any advanced civ. prior to the eruption. However, they have found some evidence in the Urals, where they are finding fragments of Nano tech. as well as other unidentifiable manufactured items at a stratigraphic level of 100,000 ybp.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2012 at 10:49
Please explain Nano tech here Red?I do not work with archeology terminology well.Maybe picture or link will
present us more what did they find there.
Back to Top
Drusin View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Feb-2012
Location: usa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2012 at 18:06
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2012 at 11:39
The Nat Geographic channel had a special on last nite about Gobekli.  All that you've seen in the pics on the net doesn't begin to show the enormous scale of it.
The sections that we have seen were built approx 11,500 ybp.  There are other sections not yet fully excavated that date to 15,000 ybp.
 
What is interesting is that the first temples were very large.  As time went on they were filled in and covered over, then a smaller version was built on top.  This kept going until it just became a "Hill".
Even more interesting was a statement made by one of those working on it.  "The oldest sections date to 15,000 ybp.  Where did the engineering and stone working skills come from? If they learned from trial and error you could figure it took at least another thousand years."
BTW- The T shaped stone with the lizard was carved from one monolith, as were all of the others.
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2012 at 19:12
Originally posted by red clay

Mt Toba erupted approx. 75,000 ybp. reducing humans to pockets of survivors totaling less than 10,000.  However, considering our civilization evolved in less than 15,000 years,  there's 60,000 years left, plenty of time for an entire civilization to have evolved and vanish.   Toba's destruction was pretty total, there's no clear evidence left behind of any advanced civ. prior to the eruption. However, they have found some evidence in the Urals, where they are finding fragments of Nano tech. as well as other unidentifiable manufactured items at a stratigraphic level of 100,000 ybp.
 
 
 
Yepper....Gibbons, Ambrose... Rampolino et.al...I recall it well. Fits in nicely with plausibility and probability of multi cause, especially natural, that the PHD egg heads disdain. Course most of them remain feigned intellectualists, tied to the grant endowment system and fear of denying the theorems they were taught.LOL
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Drusin View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Feb-2012
Location: usa
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
  Quote Drusin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2012 at 20:40
That centrix I believe is true and a big part of the problem.  Status quo wants to stay that way, I think a lot of experts would be reduced to waiting tables.  What really gets me is the insistence that every activity of antiquity is for some ceremonial event.  It's as though ancient man did little else except prey and offer sacrifices. I think they were worshiping the gods of commerce as much as we do today.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2012 at 11:12
Originally posted by Drusin

That centrix I believe is true and a big part of the problem.  Status quo wants to stay that way, I think a lot of experts would be reduced to waiting tables.  What really gets me is the insistence that every activity of antiquity is for some ceremonial event.  It's as though ancient man did little else except prey and offer sacrifices. I think they were worshiping the gods of commerce as much as we do today.
 
 
Schmidt, the arch. that has been working on Gobekli since 1994, has postulated that religion, in this case anyway, came before everything else.  It is thought that religion came after social organisation and cities.  Schmidt's theory holds that at Gobekli religion came first, that it was the reason for the constructions and social org. came later.
 
Be careful when your looking around the net.  I've seen datings that are all over the spectrum.  And the tut-tutting and bluster from folks who proclaim to have knowledge of everything is thick.  The "creationists" are doing a better job than usual of making fools of themselves trying to explain the antiquity of the site.
 
What's being missed in most of the articles is that the temples were not "filled in all at once" as most articles say.  The first Temples were filled in, and then a smaller version was built on top.  This continued to several levels.  But the larger temples, 1st layer, weren't filled at the same times. This apparently happened over a considerable period of time.
Also, there are many "hills" not just one.
 
 
                                   
 
The level that this figure is on was dated at 11,500 ybp.  And while the temple on this level is huge, there is another complete one that is larger, that was buried to provide a platform for this level.  No reasons for this have yet been found.  To date, the earliest construction has been dated to 15,000 ybp.  However, with only about 5% of the site investigated, dating that is considerably older isn't out of the question.
This site has already turned history as we know it upside down.  There's no doubt in my mind that when this site has been more fully investigated there will be a load of history books that will have to be revised.  Not to mention the amount of crow that will have to be consumed by many.Wink
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 03-Mar-2012 at 12:07
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2012 at 19:26
Why did they replace the original structure with smaller buildings? To me, this sounds like the result of a catastrophic, irreversable population decline
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
Back to Top
Don Quixote View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 29-Dec-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4734
  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2012 at 01:04
It may have been a ritual of sanctification - first, the sanctuaries in their original size were covered, literally buried to put them in sacred space; then a smaller, "human" version is build on the top that is used by humans for current religious purposes - the structures that are on the top draw their sacred meaning/power from those that are buried; those that are buried are sacred because they are in the womb of Mother-Earth=Mpther Goddess, who is the only one identifiable deity on the cite.

Similar thing was done in 4th century BC China - royal toms were buried in the ground and a temple was put on the top or next to the resulting mount. http://gallery.sjsu.edu/oldworld/asiangate/chinesetombs/tomb-tombs-page.htm  Also, the Caddo people of Texas did the same thing - making mounds over tombs and putting a small thatched temple on the top of it http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/kids/caddo/mounds.html   . There are other parallels on such sacntification, which is being done in cultures separated in time and space, so I'll attribute it to shared human archetyped thinking, rather that to cultural borrowing.

However, such borrowing is evident between Anatolia and the Balkans, where the Mother-goddess cult prospered for  along time in the Ancient Thracian culture. The Starosell tomb was turned into a mound by deliberately burying it
http://www.balkantravellers.com/images/stories/news10/starosel_thraician_tomb.JPG
and all Thracian dolmens were oriented toward certain big hills to sanctify them, because the mountains were seen as sacred, being literally the pregnant belly of Mother-Earth-Goddess. The Thracian Cotys came from the Anatolian Cybele, who came from the Mother-Goddes on Gobekli Tepe. Hence, Anatolia and the Balkans, and Mycenean Greece can be seen as one cultural continuation; when the Dorians came and got established in Greece, the Greeks developed their culture in a different direction, while the Thracian retained the older Asia-Minor-influenced culture that connected them with Anatolia, so explanations for what the historical reality may have been in Anatolia may be searched in what has been discovered in Thrace. The prehistory of the Balkans and Anatolia has been connected since times immemorial.


Edited by Don Quixote - 04-Mar-2012 at 01:23
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2012 at 10:49
Originally posted by Nick1986

Why did they replace the original structure with smaller buildings? To me, this sounds like the result of a catastrophic, irreversable population decline
 
 
It would appear that way at first.  But the evidence shows that the backfilling occurred over a very long period of time and that the first level temples were not buried at the same time.  Also, the 2nd level buildings were almost the same size as the first.
I go along with DQ on this one.
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2012 at 11:09
Mountain was Mother's arm.Control of arm they put to dead one,powerful on Earth and glorious.It was the same in America:deep beneath pyramid was buried Leader,Terrestrial representation of Her!This reminds me about volcano.Control of Volcanoes eruptions looks powerful even today!Smile
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.