Greek-Turk, urban legends, to find the Truth!!!

Hello to all !!      I'm from Greece and I love history.  I love not the nationalistic histrory (who is sadly spread in almost every nation), but the onjektive history who helps you to find the truth.  We must try to find the truth with a objektive, friendly and calm way.

Greeks and Turks are very similar. They love the sun , they love the doner kebap/gyros and they love f.o.f. stories

I'm specialiced interested to forum members of Turkey because they know the  turkic rumors and f.o.f. stories so  they can be very helpful. Of course should every forum member speak if he know something useful.

First of all  I will analyze two themes.
1. greek-turk dogfights  in the greek-turk borders
2. Kardak team . Live the members of the Kardak(Imia) team or not ? If they are dead , why  and for what reason?

1.The greek mass media give us Greeks the view that the    Turks violate with the airplanes relative often our borders and the greek airforce  is engaged very often in  dogfights with them . Of course only iconical/ without weapons  ''dogfights'' . How is the position iof the turk mass media abou this theme ?

2. I expect all hobby historians with a interest in greek or turk thems  know what  the Imia crisis/ Kardak crisis was .    I'm not interested to speak about the actuall crisis but about something different.  HERE in Greece are rumors that the members of the KArdak team are dead due to a helicopter crash circa three months after the Imia /Kardak crisis.  The commander of the KArdak team Zeki Sen is said to be murderd some years ago from three youths.  
 Even a reporter had the dead of the members of the Kardak team as main theme. 

Question : Is this true ????  With proofs of course.. And if yes why do you think are the members of the KArdak team dead ?  It's a little to much  of a coincidence...

ps. please only forum members who love the truth and know how to speak gendle and whis proofs and logical arguments .  I'm not interested to nationalistic crackpots(neither turks or greeks )

Greetings for Greece!!!

Hello Olios!! I'm very happy about your response. I was almost disappointed because of the almost zero request. I see you have a clear and open mind. That's very good :D

Your informations are very interesting. I never said the dogfights are a problem, I was only curious about that.     Which is the  picture of the turcic media about that ? 

Can you please translate this ?
''Türk Hava Kuvvetleri Komutanlığının, Ege Denizi'nin uluslararası hava sahasında eğitim uçuşu icra eden F-16 uçaklarına, Yunanistan'ın Skiros ve Tanagra meydanlarından kalkan F-16 ve M-2000 uçakları tarafından 3 kez önleme yapılmıştır.''

I think the actual point about this is why do the Turks think that this is international area ?
Why do the Greeks think that this is greek area ?


What's your opinion about the second theme ? 

Greetings

in my opinion, dogfight is a problem because people are dying but it is not main problem. there is a cool war in aegean. 
*1996, turk pilot Nail Erdoğan died in dogfight between him and greek pilot Thanos Grivas.
*2006, greek pilot Kostas Iliakis died in turco-greek F-16 crash

these things cause tensions between 2 societies and help to go on looking each other in aggressive perspective.

I hope, i could have done because it is from millitary website and sentence isn't very normal, it is too formal and passive and also i tried to show you tukish phrases and their english response with colours. (Phrases' places are more different than i hope.)
 
"Türk Hava Kuvvetleri Komutanlığının, Ege Denizi'nin uluslararası hava sahasında eğitim uçuşu icra eden F-16 uçaklarına, Yunanistan'ın Skiros ve Tanagra meydanlarından kalkan F-16 ve M-2000 uçakları tarafından 3 kez önleme yapılmıştır."

"Prevent flights were made three times to F-16 aircrafts from Turkish Air Forces Command, which conducted a training flight in international airspace of the Aegean Sea by F-16s and M-2000s which had taken off Tanagra and Skiros airport in Greece''

Turkish media is supporting this opinion too ( like we are using international area...)

air zone is related with territorial waters and it was 3 km before, but greece expanded it once times as 6km. after that turkey did it too but in every expansion greece gain more land than turkey look maps from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute and now they want to do it as 10 or 12km.  other issue is continental shelf, which is supported by Turkey.

2- about kardak;
i have found a news which was about 5 dead soilders in helicopter crash near marmaris. the names of martyr soldiers are Bülent Usta, Ahmet Toprakkarıştıran,  İhsan Çakmak,  Ahmet Selçuk,  Aykut Tetik.

another sources says 3 injured people and one of the four missing people have been in kardak.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/693/aksazzzzz.png/ from one turkish newspaper
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/693/aksaz.png/ photo of helicopter after accident

In additionally, Zeki Şen was killed by addicted three teenagers(between 12-16years). they jailed for 20 months, 25 months and one of them who had stabbed him in his hearth, 3.5 years. Mr Şen had gone to hospital on his foot(nearly 700m).

http://www.haberform.com/haber/yuzbasi-zeki-sen-katil-serbest-zeki-sen-katil-tahliye-oldu-35273.htm  turkish










Edited by Ollios - 19-Aug-2011 at 03:44

Originally posted by Nick1986 I wish i knew more about Greco-Turkish history. Is this rivalry the result of the Balkan Wars or does it go further back: to the Greek war of independence, fall of Constantinople or siege of Troy?

i can take it back in siege of Troy . but it can be older than. according to herodot, east and west is fighting because of mutual kidnapping which begun with kidnapping of Europe

in order
firstly europe(by west), then io(by east), medea(by west), finally hellen(by east)

after all of them wars are begining

west- then siege of troy
east- greco-persian war
west- alexsander the great.... but this is a bit mythological side.


Edited by Ollios - 19-Aug-2011 at 19:14

Hello to all!! Sorry for the long time I  needed to answear!! Now I'm back!!  

@Nick1986     I will try to answear to your question .  Of course had the ancient Greeks and the Trojans  problems and conflicts with another but they were different archaic cultures(and they are a little mythical from historical side),    their conflicts are not related with our modern conflicts (except  if we see this in  a romantic feeling of history)... The same takes effect for the clashes between the ancient Greeks and the Achemenids PErsians ..

    Later the clashes were between the Romans (which have conquered Greece 146 BC)  and the Arsacids/Sassanids Parthians/Persians ...         

Later the fight goes on between the estern part of the roman empire (''byzantine empire'' wich had a greek culture and language and the euroepan kingdoms refer to the Byzantines as Regnum Grecum, but the Byzantines themselves  have a feeling as ''Roman'' (christian,with a latin and later greek language, greek-roman culture)   and the Sassanids Persians ...........  The  Byzantines were in the  6 century AD arch enemys with the Sassanids and the Avars (which were enemys of the Western Gokturks)  .. So the alliance of the Byzantines and the Western ''Gokturks'' (not exactly modern Turks) was a natural obligation..

That was so far I know the first contact between the greek-roman  culture  and the turcic(not yet ''turk'' in modern sense) culture ..

Later the  Arabs destroyed the Persians and they almost conquered Constantinopel, but only almost.. The  Tang chinese destoyed the Gokturks....       In a battle between Arabs and Chinese (Talas battle) the Arabs were the winner , because the Karluk merchaneries   change the side )..

I talk to much !!    I will explain a little faster!! Later the muslim Arabs  so far I know started to muslimize the turcic tribes and so they brought turcic slave warriors  as merceneries   to fight in their civile wars  and of course also against the Byzantines(which started to be more Greek than Romans and they were weaker than earlier because of the many wars and financial problems) ..

The Seljuc turcic  dynasty was very strong and they  found a strong empire.. They destroyed the byzantine army in mazicert (26 August 1071 AD )  and so the Seljucs begun to colonize the land of modern Turkey...   Later the crusaders sacked 1204 Constantinopel and the Seljucs Turcs  were overwhlemed from the Ottomans  Turks....  The Ottomans  could sack  the weak ''state'' of Byzanze(in fact it was  at this time only a poorly populated Constantinopel)  in 29 Mai 1453..

The Ottomans  were a muslim multination state with a turk dynasty... They refer to themselves as Ottomans , but the europeans refer to the Ottomans as Turks .....        Although the Ottoman Empire had at the start some tolerance in religions   later it become corrupt and weak(sick man of Europe)  and it was some times very cruel ( ALi Pasha from Yannena, recrutment of Yanitscharies etc.) ...    

The christian Greeks   could free themelves (with help from the great powers) after the greek war of indipedence (1821)..  (Although some  christian populations had tried also many times in the past to  revolt, but without success)   ...  This is a first main cause between the modern Greek-Turk rivalry

 Later  in the 19 century the Ottoman Empire started to become more turkik, less ottoman (turcic nationalism just as greek nationalism  had partly the cause of the french revolution 1789)...

In the first world war the Ottomans lose the war together (the 1897 war between Greeks and  Ottomans  had the Ottomans as winner...  in the balcan wars 1912 the balkan powers  won against the declined Ottomans) with the the Middle Powers...       Later  in the turk war of indepedence the Turks were winners ...    They had some help from the Soviets, so as the Greeks had earlier help from the English.... Now the help of the English was gone , because the King of Greece was again in power and he was antibritish
 
  It's a matter of fact that in the  turk war of indepedence both sides  have done crimes   and it' s als a matter of fact that both sides tend to see only the crimes of the others ....   Many houndred thousands Greeks came to Greece as refuges and this was also a great crisis in the greek-turk understandniss of each other ...   

Venizelos and Ataturk could later bring both states closer , but  I  think in both sides the hate and ignorance against the other nation was very great(humans always tend to generalize in those cases)....   This is the main cause for the modern rivalry.....           Some people in Greece thinks of them Turks as evil people    , and I bet the same  takes effect for  some Turks ....

  The rivalry was against flamed in the Cypruc conflict 1974  ( again both sides make crimes ) ...
Greece and Turkey are almost at a open war , the hate of the ''old generation'' is again flamed on..

The Imia krisis (Kardak Krisis) 1996 was not so ''important'' as other situations in the past, but a greec helicopter was crashed... Officialy thanks to the bad weather , but some say it was destroyed from the Turks and the greek goverment hide that      .. (It's a island . The Greeks give it the name Imia.. the  Turks give  the name Kardak... )


  The next points in greek-turk context are the dogfights I mention above in my first comment ....   Of course this is not the base topic and I only mentioned the  ''mainly'' episodes  ,  who I think played  a role in the modern relation bwtween Greece and Turkey ...   



@Olios thanks for your translation!  Your informations are very interesting.  But I will answear to you tomorrow , because now I'm a little tired ... LOL  :)

Originally posted by eaglecap The Turkic tribes did not start invading this region until after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 AD.

We have learnt it at school as Manzikert Battle, "the gates of Anatolia was opened for Turks" however it is just an epic version. Turks or Turkic tribes was in Anatolia before that battle. Firstly Byzantine didn't do anything against Turk invasions in East.

"The truce lasted until the year 1064 when Seljuks conquered the Armenian capital at Ani. Constantine X (successor to Isaac Komnenos) did much discredit to his predecessor—in 1067 Armenia was taken by the Seljuks, followed by Caesarea." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert

Ani, it is located on Turkey side of Armenia-Turkey border, one of the eastest ancient city in Turkey.
Caesarea=Kayseri so it means that they conquered nearly the 1/3 percent of Anatolia before the 1071.

"in 1069 Iconium" Iconium=Konya, Let's make it more than %50 percent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Seljuq_Wars

Kardak

Originally posted by Vagos About   Zeki Şen,  Olios do you think his assasination was only ''bad luck'' or maybe it  has something to do with the Imia/Kardak crisis ?

we don't have complo theories about this death. We are looking as a bad luck.

Originally posted by Vagos Can you affirm that all turkish commandos are dead or have you no informations about that?    You said above that   ''i have found a news which was about 5 dead soilders in helicopter crash near marmaris. the names of martyr soldiers are Bülent Usta, Ahmet Toprakkarıştıran,  İhsan Çakmak,  Ahmet Selçuk,  Aykut Tetik.'' Have you informations if those soldiers were sure in Imia/Kardak ?

Crash happened on 15 february 1996
this source say just three soilder in Kardak injured and one missing was in the Kardak, but I could find more so I don't believe that all of them died or killed for example the SAT leader in Kardak arrested in 2009 in the case of Ergenekon (Ergenekon Trials in viki)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/693/aksazzzzz.png/


Turkish Books

First of all these are not goverment books in primary or high school or general university books
Maybe they are/were books for just some lessons(greek-turk relation?) in some specieal educations like history or international relations.

I graduated from universty as engineer so I can just tell myself and what I learnt in school

Originally posted by Vagos According to this source   a turkish school book (from the turkish historian Mehmet Saka)with the name ''EgeDenizinde TurkHaklari'' says in page 19 that ''the islands of Aegeis are under greek occupation '' According to the same source I mention above this book says that the ''Minoans, Myceneans , Ionians, Troyans and Pelasgians were prototurcic tribes''....

It published in 1955, 1974 and I couldn't find anything about book. I have no idea about it, but I have learnt that this book is the first book which mentioned about continental shelf problem

We just use term of Greek Occupation just for Bozcaada, Gökçeada, East Thrace and West Anatolia during the  Μικρασιατική καταστροφή. However maybe they used it for Greek Kingdom when took the Ottoman Island in Aegean in late 19. century(Just guess) but not like that Greek Occupation in Athens  in 100 BC or today and I told you, we are using it, 99%(1% just tolerance) for today's for today's Turkey lands

Originally posted by Vagos According to the same source too,   another book with the name ''Turk Yunaniliskilerivefiliki'' (from Selahatin Salizik)  was officialy recognized from the turkish goverment to  be learned in the turkish school.  This book (always according to this page)  says that the Turks came in the Egean sea at 2480 BC and that Democrit, Herodot, Hippocrat, Pythagoras and Homer were  Turks...

I have never heard that theory; I know Sumerian Theory or Lamuria Theory but not this. However we are learning just Central Asia version at school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory

I don't know this book but I didn't learn them like Homer is Turk.

But there is one reality. Today too much research and public attention about anatolian history in Turkey. For example, we are looking  homer as an Anatolia (not Central Asian) and today more people accept research about today's turks and Anatolian genetic similarity or Herodotus as Karian. He says Greeks in Anatolia just in west coast of Anatolia (Aeolis, Ioian...) it makes very similar cultures in Lykia, Lydia weren't Greek. Do the Greeks thing that old pre-roman anatolians are greek?

Greek History Awarness, According to Turks
We have got our legends about greece too

My older aunt went to school in Greece, just for 1 or 2 years (my grand father was a teacher in a Greece Turkish school). She told me with humor that in history lesson, we(Turks) were gaining battles against Byzantine in Anatolia, but they were teaching like they were winning. 

Nationalist protests agaisnt Sky TV history documantry 1821 when the documantry told different history from goverment ones
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkce/izlenim/2011/04/110401_fooc_berberakis_ottomans.shtml
http://hellenicantidote.blogspot.com/2011/02/skais-1821-undermining-national-feeling.html
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There is long way more for both sides




Edited by Ollios - 30-Sep-2011 at 09:40