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Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world

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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world
    Posted: 15-Nov-2011 at 20:44
Originally posted by Nick1986

Greek society was undoubtedly homosexual, especially Sparta whose brides had to dress like boys due to the male-dominated upbringing of their warrior husbands. If the naked male statues aren't enough to convince you, read the story of Achilles and Patroclus, and have a look at the structure of the Spartan army. Each warrior was paired with a lover as it was believed they would fight more fiercely to impress one another. 
There isn't even the slightest hint of a homosexual relationship between Achilles and Patroclus in the Iliad. That is an invention by other men, 500-700 years after the fact, and expanded on during the medieval period...the same as Alexander.
 
Also, I didn't state that homosexuality didn't exist. I believe that I stated that in Sparta, there was no greater percentage of homosexuality than any other Polis. I was also just giving information that for the mentor-student relationship of the later agoge, this type of relationship was illegal. That doesn't mean that it didn't take place, otherwise you wouldn't have to legislate it, but it was highly frowned upon. If a homosexual relationship was struck outside of the agoge, then the general polict was live and let live.....they didn't look upon it with Victorian morals.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2011 at 00:08
hmm...what did such a mess about ancient Greeks and those today if they are no difference in identity!They were homo as today ordinary man.But I know where did roots of those stories are!
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2012 at 20:13
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2012 at 01:00
Originally posted by Nick1986

Greek society was undoubtedly homosexual, especially Sparta whose brides had to dress like boys due to the male-dominated upbringing of their warrior husbands.
The shaving of the head, or cropping of the hair (as it isn't certain which), was ritualistic for when a girl/ woman transitioned from a virgin, to a wife. The reason being is that the women were not to wear their hair long after becoming a bride. Seeing as how these young men saw naked women every day, I would be worried if they were ultimately freaked out on their wedding nights. Were young men that were brought up in private, all-boy academies in Britain frightened of women on their wedding nights? Something tells me that this isn't really the case.
 
 
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2012 at 01:02
Originally posted by Nick1986

The constitutional totalitarianism of Sparta:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5OTyH71czwsC&lpg=PA84&dq=sparta%20totalitarian&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false
Can you clarify the specific debate in this?
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2012 at 10:21
Originally posted by okamido

All in all, I just don't think you could quantify this Polis in a modern day political sense. It was fairly unique.
   I agree.
 
I would also add that the traditional left to right (Communist - Fascist) linear diagram of political thought is not the most accurate.  The most accurate may well be a circle that places that totaliterian communism and totaliterian fascism closer together.  When applied to Sparta, one could just as easily show parrells between Sparta and communism (especially maoist?) as one can between Sparta and fascism.
 
In the end, as Okamido mentions Sparta is very difficult to classify.
 
Originally posted by okamido

It indoctrinated an unyielding loyalty to the 'state', but it also had a heavily enforced class system.
Was that only for Spartans as compared to the various levels of slaves?  I think social classes among Spartans were greatly de-emphasized.  Though there has never been a totally classless society, spartan vs spartan class structure seems more similar to totaletarian communism than say feudalism.


Edited by Cryptic - 16-Apr-2012 at 10:28
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2012 at 18:23
Hi Cryptic,
 
 Even though they were all equal in the eyes of the State, as you pointed out, there really isn't such a thing in any society. In the case of the Spartiates, the unwritten class system revolved around the older more noble families, the specific village you were from, wealth of coin and possession of land. There were many Spartiates that had far too much and some that had almost nothing, hence the expulsions from the syssitia and the Homoioi class for some Spartiates.
 
This doesn't even take into account the official breakdown of Homoioi (Achean and Dorian), Perioikoi, helots and chattel slaves.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2012 at 20:25
Originally posted by okamido

Originally posted by Nick1986

The constitutional totalitarianism of Sparta:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5OTyH71czwsC&lpg=PA84&dq=sparta%20totalitarian&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false
Can you clarify the specific debate in this?

From what i understood, Sparta was the model for Nazism. In this brutal totalitarian state warriors came first and only the strongest and most ruthless could advance in society, unlike Athens where rulers were elected by freemen
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2012 at 13:36
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by okamido

Originally posted by Nick1986

The constitutional totalitarianism of Sparta:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5OTyH71czwsC&lpg=PA84&dq=sparta%20totalitarian&pg=PA84#v=onepage&q&f=false
Can you clarify the specific debate in this?

From what i understood, Sparta was the model for Nazism. In this brutal totalitarian state warriors came first and only the strongest and most ruthless could advance in society, unlike Athens where rulers were elected by freemen
I think we need to ask ourselves.....what didn't the Nazis twist and warp. My own State, California, had a eugenics policy that was a major precursor to the Nazi's own policies, just twisted to fit their own needs. Not being in and of itself wrong, the science and study of eugenics was killed in its infancy because of them, and most likely will never become a serious thing ever again.
 
Back to the Spartans however. What must be remembered between Athens and Sparta is this....at no time, and I mean no time, did Athens ever elect rulers during their experiment with direct democracy. 'Leadership' was simply based on persuasive men, or men of social stature, influencing the voting mass. They did elect Generals in time of war, but never elected political statesmen.
 
In Sparta heowever, we have the first form of democracy in Greece...ever, and long before Athens. In Sparta, all male citizens would elect members of population to serve in their equivalence of a Senate/ Parliment/ Congress, called the Gerousia. The men of the Gerousia were all over 60 (beyond the age of military service), and were elected for life. This body would prepare rhetrai (motions), for the citizen body (the apella) to vote on. This organization was the most powerful in Sparta as it could try the Kings, veto any decisions of the ephors and propose or veto any and all laws. This form of representive democracy was, as I said, the first in all of Greece, as well as the longest lasting and most stable.
 
It should also be noted that Sparta was well known for being the "Tyrant killers" of Greece. Many Poleis of Greece were freed from singular tyranny by the Spartan military machine, thus allowing them to reform their constitution and councils of leadership. Athens itself was freed by Sparta, when the Spartans deposed Hippias on the orders of the Oracle of Delphi (most likely bribed by Athenians).
 
One more interesting fact of note is that if we look at this golden age of Athenian democracy and free men, Athens actually had far more chattel slaves than Sparta, or any other poleis at the time, could hope to have. Sparta also was never executed mass portions of male citizens as the Athenians did to their 'allies' at Samos.....all because the people of Samos had the nerve to quarrel with Miletus, which was the home polis of Pericles' lover, Aspasia.


Edited by okamido - 17-Apr-2012 at 13:37
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2012 at 21:33
Originally posted by okamido

Originally posted by Nick1986

Greek society was undoubtedly homosexual, especially Sparta whose brides had to dress like boys due to the male-dominated upbringing of their warrior husbands.
The shaving of the head, or cropping of the hair (as it isn't certain which), was ritualistic for when a girl/ woman transitioned from a virgin, to a wife. The reason being is that the women were not to wear their hair long after becoming a bride. Seeing as how these young men saw naked women every day, I would be worried if they were ultimately freaked out on their wedding nights. Were young men that were brought up in private, all-boy academies in Britain frightened of women on their wedding nights? Something tells me that this isn't really the case.
 
 

How do you know they would have seen naked women everyday? Spartan boys left home aged 7 to join a "herd" of children where they would begin training as warriors
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2012 at 11:20
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by okamido

Originally posted by Nick1986

Greek society was undoubtedly homosexual, especially Sparta whose brides had to dress like boys due to the male-dominated upbringing of their warrior husbands.
The shaving of the head, or cropping of the hair (as it isn't certain which), was ritualistic for when a girl/ woman transitioned from a virgin, to a wife. The reason being is that the women were not to wear their hair long after becoming a bride. Seeing as how these young men saw naked women every day, I would be worried if they were ultimately freaked out on their wedding nights. Were young men that were brought up in private, all-boy academies in Britain frightened of women on their wedding nights? Something tells me that this isn't really the case.
 
 

How do you know they would have seen naked women everyday? Spartan boys left home aged 7 to join a "herd" of children where they would begin training as warriors
The first several years of the Agoge had nothing to do with warrior training. It was in fact, the first mandated education of the youth, something that no other polis had, and something that many Greeks admired and sent their sons to. The first several years focused on reading, writing, physical education, and the learning of self discipline.
 
The women as well had an education system, something that once again no other polis had...especially Athens, whose citizens were well known for placing their female infants into jars to be left in the countryside to die. A much more well known and documented(but not publicized) form of infanticide. Part of the female Spartiate's education was constant physical exercise....that was taken with the young men of the Agoge, in the nude, and in public.


Edited by okamido - 19-Apr-2012 at 16:06
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2012 at 19:56
Sounds similar to the BDM and Hitler Youth. The Nazis also valued physically fit women as they were more likely to survive childbirth
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 12:05
Originally posted by Nick1986

Sounds similar to the BDM and Hitler Youth. The Nazis also valued physically fit women as they were more likely to survive childbirth
Yes it does, but it could also apply to Stalinistic communism where physical fitness was also glorified and women were encouraged to train in atheletics to show that they had cast off traditional modesty / sex roles and embraced communism.
 
I think that there are two problems with atttempting to classify Sparta politically:
1.)  Sparta, was well Sparta and pretty unique
2.) The traditional left - center - right linear model of political thought is not accurate.  Rather, political thought is a circle. The far right (Nazi) and the extreme left (Stalin style communism) share many characteristics in common.  
 
Originally posted by okamido

 Even though they were all equal in the eyes of the State, as you pointed out, there really isn't such a thing in any society. In the case of the Spartiates, the unwritten class system revolved around the older more noble families, the specific village you were from, wealth of coin and possession of land.
I agree, though the Spartan ideal did de emphasize the concept of a class system rather than affirm it.  This de emphasization is usually associated with leftist politics.


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Jul-2012 at 12:31
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2012 at 19:14
I still think the violent militarist brainwashing was more Nazi than Stalinist. Like Nazi Germany, Sparta had a warrior elite (similar to the Germans) desperate to hang onto their power by oppressing slave races (Helots in Sparta, Slavs in greater Germany)
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2012 at 07:11
Originally posted by Nick1986

The Spartans also threw disabled babies off cliffs in the hope of creating a purer race. This sounds a lot like the Nazi theory of Eugenics


Archaeology found zero evidence to support this myth. No baby skulls were found in any area around Sparta in any type of mass grave (massive number of baby skeletons & skulls in a single area).Wink
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2012 at 07:12
The problem with Sparta is this: We know alot about Sparta from Athenians who tried to demonize their old enemy...... 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2012 at 19:17
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Nick1986

The Spartans also threw disabled babies off cliffs in the hope of creating a purer race. This sounds a lot like the Nazi theory of Eugenics


Archaeology found zero evidence to support this myth. No baby skulls were found in any area around Sparta in any type of mass grave (massive number of baby skeletons & skulls in a single area).Wink

Most likely because the bones were washed out to sea
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2012 at 13:01
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Nick1986

The Spartans also threw disabled babies off cliffs in the hope of creating a purer race. This sounds a lot like the Nazi theory of Eugenics


Archaeology found zero evidence to support this myth. No baby skulls were found in any area around Sparta in any type of mass grave (massive number of baby skeletons & skulls in a single area).Wink

Most likely because the bones were washed out to sea
Nowhere near the sea. The Apothetae was located in the Taygetos range, and while the bones of adults have been found there, nothing to indicate that any infants met their end at the bottom of the chasm.
 
File:Taygetos relief map-de.png
 


Edited by okamido - 30-Jul-2012 at 13:04
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 19:58
The bones of infants are more fragile than those of adults, hence less likely to survive. Perhaps they are buried deep beneath landslides, or in crevasses that have since been blocked?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2012 at 20:08
Infant bones have been found in Carthage.
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