Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world

No more than Athens was. Every city-state could be blamed for such ideology. To survive they had to believe that they are the best and that their neighbors are created just to give them goods. As the strongest state Sparta is blamed more than them all. But there is no real reason...

We don't know much that is certain about those far days.It seems, that it was the so-called 2nd messenian war which caused the change in the social charcter of the Spartans. The time inw hich these reforms seem to have happened is the 7th and 6th century, so we should doubt, that it was invented by one person or even a single group of persons and some of sparta's constitution is probably older than those reforms.

so was not Lykurg, if he existed at all.

And maybe Lykurg is as real as Artus.

Originally posted by okamido I would probably rethink the agoge, Nick. Many 'friends of Sparta', such as Xenophon, sent their sons to the agoge. With childhood mortality rates being what they were for every era before the latter 20th century, do you think some wealthy oligarch would send his son and heir to a place were he might possibly be killed so easily?   Logic usually wins out over gossip.

yes, indeed. the fail in the agoge doesn't men to die, just to lose the status as homoioi.

There is nothing nazi-like in sparta

I would probably rethink the agoge, Nick. Many 'friends of Sparta', such as Xenophon, sent their sons to the agoge. With childhood mortality rates being what they were for every era before the latter 20th century, do you think some wealthy oligarch would send his son and heir to a place were he might possibly be killed so easily?

maybe a few words about eugenics. Plutrch reported, that the spartans bring their babies to the Eldest so that they decided, if the children were healthy and strong or ill and weak. If they were weak and ill, they were brought to the Apothetai. He explained, that it was better for such babies not to live longer and as well better for the state.
But Plutarch failed to explain, what he originally wanted to explain, namely why it was the state who decided this, while in other greek states it was the father. Cos this is the difference between Sparta and the rest of greece, not that weak babies were only killed in sparta.
So why did the state does it. If the state did not want to get ill and weak citizens later, after the children became adult, then to abandon babies was not necessary, cos there was the agoge. Nobody who did not manage to go to the agoge became a Spartan citizen.
What makes sense is not, that the state wanted to avoid ill and weak babies, but it was the completely opposite. The state did not want to allow the father to decide, which baby should stay alive and which not.  This was e.g. important for the heritage. Was it big enough for several children?
Sparta granted special rights for fathers with three or more children, rights for mothers. So it was a method to make sure, that strong and healthy babies did not end in the Apothetai. Did the eldest decide to raise the children, the parents had to. Maybe this was decided even, when the kid was disabled, just see Agesilaos II.

An interesting paper discussing Sparta's war on the Helots: the army were paid to pillage the countryside for the enrichment of the few elite families
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=27314

Spartans Nazis? Lets get real here.

Originally posted by Nick1986 Originally posted by TITAN_ Sparta didn't try to conquer Europe so, I don't see any parallel.... What about their aggression, militarism, indoctrination, totalitarianism, ingrained discrimination, and preference for brute strength over intelligence?