Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Iran has very limited amount of R1a1

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Aryavartta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Nov-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Aryavartta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Iran has very limited amount of R1a1
    Posted: 04-Nov-2016 at 16:52
Originally posted by Vispaiti

Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Only 19% of Iranic people in the capital of Tajikistan, Dushanbe, belong to hg R1a. Tajikistan is in Central Asia. It seems that true Iranic people don't have that much of R1a. And Slavic people that have that much R1a is because of the Turks from Central Asia. Turks, Tatars, Huns and Mongols brought more of hg R1a to Russia.
Russia had already more than 20% of R1a, but because of the Mongol and Tatar invasions into Russia their percentage of hg R1a jumped to above 50%.
 

Iranian people (Ossetians (Alans), Iranians (Persians) and Kurds (Medes)) in the Middle East don't have that much R1a.


sorry but most tajiks have 50% R1a :High frequencies of R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198; 50 to 70%) are found among the Ishkashimis, Khujand Tajiks, Panjakent Tajiks.Eastern afghan tajiks(parwan,panjshir,badakshan) have also very much r1a but farswiwan of ghor,herat,farah are similar to persians

Persians are just iranized elamites and it is very ironic that Persia is today called land of aryans
Tajiks have 50% the Bengali Brahmins have 72%, the Mohanna tribes have 70%.
Back to Top
Aryavartta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Nov-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Aryavartta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2016 at 16:49
Originally posted by balochii

Pashtuns indeed have among the highest R1a1a, also recently at the Harrapa ancestry genetic project, some of the Pashtuns are showing up to 20% northern European component, which basically states that Aryans, did indeed have a lot of Northern European ancestry. Now the questions where did the Aryans comes from? logically looking at the genetics of people, so far it looks like perhaps some where in present day Russia
No Pashtuns are just 52% in Afghanistan, please show me the report that says they have the highest, the report says Bengali Brahmins have the highest R1a1 at 72%, then the Mohanna tribes have 70%, the Swastika is a symbol of the Arya Samaj, which those Pashtuns never used. 
Back to Top
Aryavartta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Nov-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Aryavartta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2016 at 16:46
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah



If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?

That's not what I stated. I stated the Y-chromosome can't change no matter how mixed you are. If you go deeper into DNA then you can find the different ancestries of an ethnicity, however the Y-chromosome in males is still unchanged.

So when you have males having the same Y-chromosomes in different parts of the world or both genders sharing common mtDNA , speaking languages of the same origin, it's fair to assume they have common ancestors who spoke a language ancestral to the ones spoken by the modern speakers.



North India is Aryavartta while Persia is elamite land, the Persians are just Aryanized elamites, the Aryans were nomad milk drinkers from the Kurgan who move to south asia way back in time, R1a1 in Bengali Brahmins is 72%, Mohanna tribes is 70%, and Afghan Pashtuns only have 52%. Read the Rig Vedas which are the oldest Aryan manuscripts just like the Swastika that Hitler uses is found mostly in the Indus Valley and no where else.
Back to Top
Aryavartta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Nov-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Aryavartta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2016 at 16:43
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.


because in ancient times race mixing was much less common due to difficulty in mobility. Also when people are speaking related languages and having common haplogroups, we then conclude that the shared haplogroup was the haplogroup of the common ancestor.


I can see less race mixing in places like China isolated by mountains, but Micheal Witzel thinks that the PIE people were a mixed race. 


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language?

Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.


You can't "contribute" to a language except for loanwords provided they don't grammatically conflict with the language borrowing it.


Do we know that PIE is not a creole like language?

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


In response to your genetics question, if you're a male you're Y-chromosome is the same haplogroup passed from the father to the son and on it does not change regardless of race mixing. Only mutation change these haplogroups. If you're a female it's different but both males and females also have the same mtDNA passed from mother to off-spring, unless again a mutation changes it.



If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?
the land of north india was called Aryavartta means abode of the Aryans, the land of north india has the highest amounts of R1a1 on the planet and the most diversity of it too, not to mention the older subclade of it, Bengali Brahmins are 72% R1a1, the highest in the world, then is the Mohanna tribes who are 70%, the Afghan Pashtuns are 52%, lets not forget that the swastika symbol that Hitler used is found most in the Indus than anywhere else in the world, the caste system of today is an Aryan invention, the first three caste are of Aryan stock, it is known that 85% of India was not even allowed to study any of the Rig Vedas, and also 15% of India is lactose tolerant while 85% is lactose intolerant, the Aryans were milk drinkers and just northern India is lactose tolerant. The Persians neither have the genes, traditions, clothing that Aryans use to have, nor are there stories so in-depth like the Rig Veda that they talk about their journey from the Kurgan to Iran, the Aryans were apart of the Yamaya people. A more warlike branch went to south asia.
Back to Top
Aryavartta View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 04-Nov-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Aryavartta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2016 at 16:35
Wrong, Indians did use the word Aryan to relate to themselves, they called themselves Aryan people, that is the reason for the whole caste system, the Brahmin, Kshtriya, and the Banias were Aryan stock, the Shudras and Untouchables were Dravidian stock, till this day the caste system is there, the Aryan people of India came on war chariots from the Kurgan 50,000 years ago and established Rig Veda Hinduism which is an Aryan religion, the Swastika that Hitler used was a Indo Aryan symbol, the land of northern India was called Aryavartta which means abode of the Aryans, 85% of India is lactose intolerant, whereas the northern 15% are lactose tolerant because Aryans were milk drinkers, you still have groups like Arya Samaj in India, R1a1 is a Aryan haplogroup and India's R1a1 is much older than Europe, not only that Bengali Brahmins have 72% of it, the most R1a1 is found in south asia among Brahmins at 72%, Mohanna tribes at 70%, and Punjabi groups at 60%, the Afghan Pashtuns are 52%, Persians are J, which isn't anywhere near the Kurgan where Aryans originated from, all Aryan traditions food clothing genetics religion are in India, the Persians neither have the genes, traditions, clothing that relates them to Aryan people.
Back to Top
Vispaiti View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 14-Aug-2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
  Quote Vispaiti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2014 at 07:38
Originally posted by MediaWarLord

Only 19% of Iranic people in the capital of Tajikistan, Dushanbe, belong to hg R1a. Tajikistan is in Central Asia. It seems that true Iranic people don't have that much of R1a. And Slavic people that have that much R1a is because of the Turks from Central Asia. Turks, Tatars, Huns and Mongols brought more of hg R1a to Russia.
Russia had already more than 20% of R1a, but because of the Mongol and Tatar invasions into Russia their percentage of hg R1a jumped to above 50%.
 

Iranian people (Ossetians (Alans), Iranians (Persians) and Kurds (Medes)) in the Middle East don't have that much R1a.


sorry but most tajiks have 50% R1a :High frequencies of R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198; 50 to 70%) are found among the Ishkashimis, Khujand Tajiks, Panjakent Tajiks.Eastern afghan tajiks(parwan,panjshir,badakshan) have also very much r1a but farswiwan of ghor,herat,farah are similar to persians

Persians are just iranized elamites and it is very ironic that Persia is today called land of aryans

Edited by Vispaiti - 14-Aug-2014 at 08:04
Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 18:04
Originally posted by mojobadshah



If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?

That's not what I stated. I stated the Y-chromosome can't change no matter how mixed you are. If you go deeper into DNA then you can find the different ancestries of an ethnicity, however the Y-chromosome in males is still unchanged.

So when you have males having the same Y-chromosomes in different parts of the world or both genders sharing common mtDNA , speaking languages of the same origin, it's fair to assume they have common ancestors who spoke a language ancestral to the ones spoken by the modern speakers.





Edited by PakistaniShield - 09-Jan-2014 at 18:05
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2014 at 10:23
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.


because in ancient times race mixing was much less common due to difficulty in mobility. Also when people are speaking related languages and having common haplogroups, we then conclude that the shared haplogroup was the haplogroup of the common ancestor.


I can see less race mixing in places like China isolated by mountains, but Micheal Witzel thinks that the PIE people were a mixed race. 


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language?

Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.


You can't "contribute" to a language except for loanwords provided they don't grammatically conflict with the language borrowing it.


Do we know that PIE is not a creole like language?

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


In response to your genetics question, if you're a male you're Y-chromosome is the same haplogroup passed from the father to the son and on it does not change regardless of race mixing. Only mutation change these haplogroups. If you're a female it's different but both males and females also have the same mtDNA passed from mother to off-spring, unless again a mutation changes it.



If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?
Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 14:37
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.


because in ancient times race mixing was much less common due to difficulty in mobility. Also when people are speaking related languages and having common haplogroups, we then conclude that the shared haplogroup was the haplogroup of the common ancestor.

There were also DNA tests done on Tocharian mummies in China and similar results must have come out.


Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language?

Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.


You can't "contribute" to a language except for loanwords provided they don't grammatically conflict with the language borrowing it.

In response to your genetics question, if you're a male you're Y-chromosome is the same haplogroup passed from the father to the son and on it does not change regardless of race mixing. Only mutation change these haplogroups. If you're a female it's different but both males and females also have the same mtDNA passed from mother to off-spring, unless again a mutation changes it.
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699
  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2014 at 00:34
Pashtuns indeed have among the highest R1a1a, also recently at the Harrapa ancestry genetic project, some of the Pashtuns are showing up to 20% northern European component, which basically states that Aryans, did indeed have a lot of Northern European ancestry. Now the questions where did the Aryans comes from? logically looking at the genetics of people, so far it looks like perhaps some where in present day Russia
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2014 at 21:06
Is tracing PIE people using only genetics will result in a very linear model of descent.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of diversity within an ethnic group?  What ethnic group is pure?  The Pashtun's look like they have a very high percentage of R1a1a, but there are other Pashtun haplogroups like L and J.  There is no 1 haplogroup that designates the Parsis too.  So why would the PIE people have been composed of only 1 haplogroup.  

Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language?

Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.
Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2013 at 18:31
Originally posted by Ollios


That just can be true for Turko-Mongols, not the others. Since neolitihic period, Anatolia has been home for haplogroups J1-J2  


J2 would be an obvious find in Anatolia as it's a common Mediterranean haplogroup and probably originated in Mesopotamia. 

J1 would probably be in the southern regions of Anatolia and is very strong there even till today.
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2013 at 00:19
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 
As i explained Haplogroup R1A1 is a subclade of haplogroup R. It is haplogroup R that is associated with Indo-European peoples, while the subclades are associated with different indo-european sub-races.

yeap, you are right

Nice map about the isssue. Even Arabs and Central Asian Turks have own subgroup R


Originally posted by PakistaniShield

 
Anatolia is also in Europe, amongst the earliest European and Christian civilizations, but because it's Muslim today, it's no longer considered Europe although geographically it is mostly Europe.

Anatolia has a mixed population in more recent centuries since the influx of Turko-Mongols, Persians, Arabs and other Semites. 

That just can be true for Turko-Mongols, not the others. Since neolitihic period, Anatolia has been home for haplogroups J1-J2  






Edited by Ollios - 06-Oct-2013 at 00:21
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 17:43
Originally posted by mojobadshah



Looking at the map it looks like Eastern Europe has the highest concentration of R1a1a.  And if the PIE people had R1a1a would that mean that they probably originated somewhere in Eastern Europe?  And if this is the case wouldn't that disprove the Anatolian PIE homeland hypothesis?  On the other hand, the reason I brought up the possible mixed origin of the PIE people is because of a paper I read by Michael Witzel.  If Witzel is right, the fact that Anatolia is a mixed population would make it a likely candidate for the PIE homeland wouldn't it?


As i explained Haplogroup R1A1 is a subclade of haplogroup R. It is haplogroup R that is associated with Indo-European peoples, while the subclades are associated with different indo-european sub-races.

As Ollios showed by the map R1A1 is associated with Eastern Indo-Europeans and Central ones. R1B is more for western Indo-Europeans, so to state or even suggest that R1A1 is Proto-Indo-European does not make sense.

Anatolia is also in Europe, amongst the earliest European and Christian civilizations, but because it's Muslim today, it's no longer considered Europe although geographically it is mostly Europe.

Anatolia has a mixed population in more recent centuries since the influx of Turko-Mongols, Persians, Arabs and other Semites.

Anatolia is widely accepted as one of the earliest Indo-European homelands, but not necessarily the earliest.  The best way to determine the genetics of proto-indo-europeans is to extract dna from the earliest IE settlements and examine the haplogroups.


Edited by PakistaniShield - 05-Oct-2013 at 18:03
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 14:23
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Looking at the map it looks like Eastern Europe has the highest concentration of R1a1a.  And if the PIE people had R1a1a would that mean that they probably originated somewhere in Eastern Europe?  And if this is the case wouldn't that disprove the Anatolian PIE homeland hypothesis?  On the other hand, the reason I brought up the possible mixed origin of the PIE people is because of a paper I read by Michael Witzel.  If Witzel is right, the fact that Anatolia is a mixed population would make it a likely candidate for the PIE homeland wouldn't it?

Why are you just looking for R1a1a? There are also other IE haplogroup just as R1b or I1(Sweden) and I2(Bosnia)

There is nearly no haplogroup R in Europe before 5000BC just R1a in Ukraine-Russia and R1b is in Middle East, not in West Europe

If you take the Dinester Culture as the homeland of PIE also it is suitable for Kurgan theory. They had a little I2 



 


Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 11:13
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by mojobadshah

I understand that J and R are different haplotypes, but this doesn't rule out the possibility that the Proto-Indo-European speakers were of mixed haplotypes.  Language travels faster than people.  Or is there anything illogical about this?

Yes and No 

even today some nations are really mixed as Greece, Turkey and Iran. On the other hand some of others not that much, so you can see clearly which haplogroup are they as British or Finns (most of these country are isolated or located on edge of continents) 

  
we can't say that Turks in Anatolia come from J2, just looking up map

because
in reality, yes the number of Turks who has J2 genetic material more than the other groups 25% but not majority of Turks have this material

However we know that clear majority of Atlantic Europe has R1b and Finns have N genetic material 

An other example ancient British people has R-L21. Isn't it clear? If I am in this group, I can say that I am grandgrand... child of Galatian CeltsLOL

but it is realy hard to talk about Ottomans or Byzantines


Looking at the map it looks like Eastern Europe has the highest concentration of R1a1a.  And if the PIE people had R1a1a would that mean that they probably originated somewhere in Eastern Europe?  And if this is the case wouldn't that disprove the Anatolian PIE homeland hypothesis?  On the other hand, the reason I brought up the possible mixed origin of the PIE people is because of a paper I read by Michael Witzel.  If Witzel is right, the fact that Anatolia is a mixed population would make it a likely candidate for the PIE homeland wouldn't it?
Back to Top
Ollios View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22-Feb-2011
Location: Diyar-ı Rum
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1130
  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 00:53
Originally posted by mojobadshah

I understand that J and R are different haplotypes, but this doesn't rule out the possibility that the Proto-Indo-European speakers were of mixed haplotypes.  Language travels faster than people.  Or is there anything illogical about this?

Yes and No 

even today some nations are really mixed as Greece, Turkey and Iran. On the other hand some of others not that much, so you can see clearly which haplogroup are they as British or Finns (most of these country are isolated or located on edge of continents) 

  
we can't say that Turks in Anatolia come from J2, just looking up map

because
in reality, yes the number of Turks who has J2 genetic material more than the other groups 25% but not majority of Turks have this material

However we know that clear majority of Atlantic Europe has R1b and Finns have N genetic material 

An other example ancient British people has R-L21. Isn't it clear? If I am in this group, I can say that I am grandgrand... child of Galatian CeltsLOL

but it is realy hard to talk about Ottomans or Byzantines



Edited by Ollios - 05-Oct-2013 at 00:57
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
Back to Top
mojobadshah View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 20-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2013 at 21:57
Originally posted by PakistaniShield

Originally posted by mojobadshah


And this is just totally idiotic.  The Irano-Afghans called themselves Aryans collectively.  Their homeland was called Airyana.  The Indics only used "Aryan" as an adjective.  Nationally they were called Purus or Barattas.   Its like one of the few cases where a people's language is not named after their national epyonym.  The English speak English the Irish speak Irish the Germans speak German, but the Indics speak "noble."  You know what I'm saying?  Your right that nationality and language are two different things.  But the language of the Irano-Afghans (Aryans) is called Iranian or Iranic because their homeland was Iran (Aryana).  

"Aryan" is restricted to the Indo-Iranians and most justly to the latter because Iran means Aryan.  But since WWII it has also come to mean white, a meaning that developed because the Indo-Europeans were thought to be peopled by whites.   

Anyway to expound upon my original answer to the original question.  The idea of the Aryans even as a superior race is not totally unfounded.  The Germans were probably not the root race.  They were not the Proto-Aryans or Proto-Indo-Europeans, but like the rest of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans their descendants.  And the Indo-Europeans otherwise known as Aryans, the proposed R1a1a or maybe J2 or I haplogroup just looking at the Irano-Aryans were very powerful, and underrated at the same time.  For example Zoroaster is said to be the most influential figure who ever lived because it is the root of the West's religious heritage and even Islam, but the average individual has never heard of Zoroaster.  This fact has intellectual potential.  Then there's the fact that the Persians established the world's first world empire Persia, the largest empire ever proportionately and to think that they did this by sheer man and horsepower before there were guns.  Of course this fact was overshadowed by Alexander.  But the Greek Empires and Roman Empires which were Indo-European and very powerful.  Lastly there's the language aspect.  Indo-European is the most widespread language superfamily in the world, English an IE. language being the lingua franca and Spanish the second.  There's nothing mythological or fabricated about this.  


A lot of what you have written is questionable. Firstly the terminology of places, people, languages etc. do almost always have their origins in something physical.  Like Aryan being spoken by the Indo-Aryans as you just mentioned.

Originally posted by PakistaniShield

The same can be stated for Germans, French English, all these terms have origins in a physical idea if you research them going back far enough. For example Finns call their language "Suominen" in Finnish. The term Suominen comes from "Suomi" the Finnish word for Finland. According to a Finnish person I know, the term Suomi originates in reference to "swamp" because the area of Finland that was settled by the Finns was an area of swamps.

So if you take this term far back enough, Finns speak the language of the land of the swamps. Finns are the people of the land of the swamps. Today it might not hold that much meaning, but the term is there for a reason.

I'm not arguing against this.  Aryan probably could have meant something along the lines of "noble" originally, but the Irano-Afghans are the only ones that used Aryan as a noun.  When an Irano-Afghan said he was an Aryan he was saying that he was affiliated with others who called themselves Aryan.  When an Indian called himself Aryan he was merely saying he or they was or were a "noble" or "good" person or people.  He wasn't saying that the people themselves are called "noble."  

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


Same way the Indo-Aryans speak or rather spoke the language of the nobles if the term is traced back correctly. To correct your confusion, the evolution of Indo-Aryan languages goes by Proto-Indo-Iranic> Proto-Indo-Aryan>Sanskrit> modern Indo-Aryan languages.

That's the way I understood it.  You seemed to imply that at some point Indic languages split into Indo-Aryan and non-Indo-Aryan languages.  

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


Your statement that Persians established the first empire is questionable as there are many empires worldwide found throughout history. A world empire would be the British or French Empire. 

I said the Persian empire was the largest empire proportionately to the British Empire.  The British and French Empires were also Aryan empires, but there is a huge gap between ancient Persia and British imperialism.  On top of that, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is the way I see it.  The Persians didn't have guns and weren't conquering technologically inferior people.  They fought their enemies basically as equals.  The British had guns and colonized mainly people without guns.  When the went up against the Afghans, who did have guns for example, they lost out.    

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


Indo-European is a family of languages, super families are currently hypothetical families that consists of multiple language families such as Nostratic. 


No.  You should check this.  Indo-European is a family of languages but is sometimes referred to a superfamily because it is the umbrella under which several subfamilies fall into.  Nostratic is also a superfamily, but the common ancestor of Indo-European which in this case would be considered a subfamily.  

Originally posted by PakistaniShield


The first reference to Aryan is most likely Sanskrit. Persian kings might have them to refer to their self noblety, which originated in . 


This all depends on what you consider more ancient Sanskrit or Avestan.  There are scholars who have proposed that it was Zoroaster's reforms which caused the Indo-Iranian split which would make the Avesta more ancient than Sanskrit.  Even if Avestan and Sanskrit were equally ancient the form Aryan only appears as a national designation in Sanskrit.  Evidence for a national designation in Sanskrit is very weak.   

[QUOTE=PakistaniShield]
Also J2 is not associated with Indo-Europeans as far as I know. J2 is claimed to have originated in mesepotamia and associated with middle eastern and Mediterranean populations, mostly southern Europeans and North Africans.

Haplogroup J and R are very two different haplotypes. 

I understand that J and R are different haplotypes, but this doesn't rule out the possibility that the Proto-Indo-European speakers were of mixed haplotypes.  Language travels faster than people.  Or is there anything illogical about this?


Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2013 at 21:29
Originally posted by mojobadshah


And this is just totally idiotic.  The Irano-Afghans called themselves Aryans collectively.  Their homeland was called Airyana.  The Indics only used "Aryan" as an adjective.  Nationally they were called Purus or Barattas.   Its like one of the few cases where a people's language is not named after their national epyonym.  The English speak English the Irish speak Irish the Germans speak German, but the Indics speak "noble."  You know what I'm saying?  Your right that nationality and language are two different things.  But the language of the Irano-Afghans (Aryans) is called Iranian or Iranic because their homeland was Iran (Aryana).  

"Aryan" is restricted to the Indo-Iranians and most justly to the latter because Iran means Aryan.  But since WWII it has also come to mean white, a meaning that developed because the Indo-Europeans were thought to be peopled by whites.   

Anyway to expound upon my original answer to the original question.  The idea of the Aryans even as a superior race is not totally unfounded.  The Germans were probably not the root race.  They were not the Proto-Aryans or Proto-Indo-Europeans, but like the rest of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans their descendants.  And the Indo-Europeans otherwise known as Aryans, the proposed R1a1a or maybe J2 or I haplogroup just looking at the Irano-Aryans were very powerful, and underrated at the same time.  For example Zoroaster is said to be the most influential figure who ever lived because it is the root of the West's religious heritage and even Islam, but the average individual has never heard of Zoroaster.  This fact has intellectual potential.  Then there's the fact that the Persians established the world's first world empire Persia, the largest empire ever proportionately and to think that they did this by sheer man and horsepower before there were guns.  Of course this fact was overshadowed by Alexander.  But the Greek Empires and Roman Empires which were Indo-European and very powerful.  Lastly there's the language aspect.  Indo-European is the most widespread language superfamily in the world, English an IE. language being the lingua franca and Spanish the second.  There's nothing mythological or fabricated about this.  


A lot of what you have written is questionable. Firstly the terminology of places, people, languages etc. do almost always have their origins in something physical.  Like Aryan being spoken by the Indo-Aryans as you just mentioned.

The same can be stated for Germans, French English, all these terms have origins in a physical idea if you research them going back far enough. For example Finns call their language "Suominen" in Finnish. The term Suominen comes from "Suomi" the Finnish word for Finland. According to a Finnish person I know, the term Suomi originates in reference to "swamp" because the area of Finland that was settled by the Finns was an area of swamps.

So if you take this term far back enough, Finns speak the language of the land of the swamps. Finns are the people of the land of the swamps. Today it might not hold that much meaning, but the term is there for a reason.

Same way the Indo-Aryans speak or rather spoke the language of the nobles if the term is traced back correctly. To correct your confusion, the evolution of Indo-Aryan languages goes by Proto-Indo-Iranic> Proto-Indo-Aryan>Sanskrit> modern Indo-Aryan languages.

Your statement that Persians established the first empire is questionable as there are many empires worldwide found throughout history. A world empire would be the British or French Empire.

Indo-European is a family of languages, super families are currently hypothetical families that consists of multiple language families such as Nostratic.

The first reference to Aryan is most likely Sanskrit. Persian kings might have them to refer to their self noblety, which originated in Sanskrit.

Also J2 is not associated with Indo-Europeans as far as I know. J2 is claimed to have originated in mesepotamia and associated with middle eastern and Mediterranean populations, mostly southern Europeans and North Africans.

Haplogroup J and R are very two different haplotypes.



Edited by PakistaniShield - 04-Oct-2013 at 21:39
Back to Top
PakistaniShield View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 26-Dec-2008
Location: North America
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 251
  Quote PakistaniShield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2013 at 21:00
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Correction, if I'm not mistaken the R1a1a would be equated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans (the forebears of the Aryans right?) but would also be found among their descendants the Indo-Europeans.  


R1A1 is a subclade of haplogroup R which is generally associated with Indo-Europeans. The R1A1 subclade is usually associated with IE populations more towards Eastern Eurasia such as Balto-Slavics and Indo-Iranics, but mostly on Y-chromosomes (father to son). I cannot state on mtDNA

Other well known R subclades are R1B (Western Eurasian) and R2 (mostly North Indian)

Balochii states from his finding that Iran has a relatively low distribution of R1A1, a statement I once found on an Iranian forum as well, but it's been a long time since I looked at genetic maps of Iran so I'm not positive but quite sure that is the case.


Edited by PakistaniShield - 04-Oct-2013 at 21:31
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.