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Pontius Pilate: Villain or Victim?

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pontius Pilate: Villain or Victim?
    Posted: 22-Apr-2011 at 13:26

Perceptions of Pilate vary: the gospels depict him as a weak governor under intense pressure to appease the Jewish elite while historians like Josephus depict him as a vicious butcher who ordered many massacres to prevent rebellion. There is even dispute over his fate: some say he committed suicide when he fell from the emperor's favor while others claim he converted to Christianity and was executed by Tiberius

Edited by Nick1986 - 22-Apr-2011 at 13:26
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2011 at 13:50
I thought the gospels portrayed him as cagey, politically. He manipulated the situation to elevate the culpability of the  Jewish elite and take much of the responsibility from his shoulders. Even the zealots took part.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2011 at 14:07
This story was probably edited during First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.Main purpose was,Roman racial politics against Christians,could have been erased!"We were not,Jews were,they already had admitted"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea












Edited by medenaywe - 22-Apr-2011 at 14:08
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  Quote unclefred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2011 at 19:32
Possible, of course, but there is no evidence for that. Earlier surviving manuscripts are consistent and date a century ot two before Nicea.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2011 at 17:09
According to one theory Pontius Pilate was Scottish. He was supposedly the illegitimate son of a Roman governor and a Pictish woman. How did he end up in Palestine?
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2011 at 17:46
I' ll stick with the classic references and the Pilate stone. Wink
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2011 at 03:27
Council of chosen have spoken their words!Do not make me feel like a Christ:crucified.CryAnyway we are talking about something on edge of twilight zone.I believe scripts were made for this:Centers of power would have used them for governing the people!Approve
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2011 at 03:48
What the hell is the council of chosen?LOL
 
Was I elected without knowing I was running for office.....Big smile
 
Not the twighlight zone pardner....the man exsisted. whether he did what has been ascribed is another question.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2011 at 04:05
You are making joke on me,combining my words from posts of mine in forum.I make joke on you and Nick. As you are significant council of wise old men.Here old women,in front of their doors/windows/balcony ,are  commenting(gossiping )  happenings  around!?!Pilate was real from blood and bones.Was the Christ?We have only 4+many others new gospels,had written many years after the event they described!Christ was and will be question of faith!"Do we have faith in?" will create this theological discussion.
Pilate's role was edited in the scripts,main idea would have been developed:Adoption of new religion by the Rome.Screenplay writers of ancients did it again!Ouch


Edited by medenaywe - 25-Apr-2011 at 04:25
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2011 at 04:15
Yep. He will always be a quest for many pard. And especially for those little old ladies who sit around the windows. Me.... I can only claim my faith; as the objective historian in me hasn't yet been satisfied with the empirical evidence.
 
But I can't be perfect eh. And in the end I'll probably be ok. Going to sleep now. Got cattle to move in 4 hours.
 
be well.
 
Smile


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 25-Apr-2011 at 04:16
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 19:07
Originally posted by unclefred

I thought the gospels portrayed him as cagey, politically. He manipulated the situation to elevate the culpability of the  Jewish elite and take much of the responsibility from his shoulders. Even the zealots took part.

During my schooldays we were taught Pilate was desperate to have the local elite on his side folowing Barrabas' unsuccessful uprising. Releasing Barabbas honored the Jewish custom of Jubilee while crucifying Jesus was a diplomatic move intended to appease the priets. Neither Pilate nor Herod saw Christ as a threat: initially Pilate wanted to release him after a quick flogging
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2011 at 19:18
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by unclefred

I thought the gospels portrayed him as cagey, politically. He manipulated the situation to elevate the culpability of the  Jewish elite and take much of the responsibility from his shoulders. Even the zealots took part.

During my schooldays we were taught Pilate was desperate to have the local elite on his side folowing Barrabas' unsuccessful uprising. Releasing Barabbas honored the Jewish custom of Jubilee while crucifying Jesus was a diplomatic move intended to appease the priets. Neither Pilate nor Herod saw Christ as a threat: initially Pilate wanted to release him after a quick flogging
 
Good commentary. Being raise and split between baptists-lutherans and catholics....i got the mutli version alas.... usually it was a slam on the JewsOuch and then eventually that transitioned somewhat. Ntl ole Pilate, depending on who you were talking with, was either a mis-understand 'sorta good guy' forced by the aforementioned Jews or was a willing participant viz his aspirations all things political.
 
To be honest not much has changed.
 
CV 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 26-Apr-2011 at 19:20
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 19:12
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2012 at 19:48
Wasn't Josephus Jewish? Bias perhaps?
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 17:48
This is a quote from Josephus on Pilate:
"... Flavius Josephus

Josephus on Pontius Pilate and the Aqueduct Riots

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177

"On a later occasion he provoked a fresh uproar by expending upon the construction of an aqueduct the sacred treasure known as Corbonas; the water was brought from a distance of seventy kilometers. Indignant at this proceeding, the populace formed a ring round the tribunal of Pilate, then on a visit to Jerusalem, and besieged him with angry clamor. 

He, foreseeing the tumult, had interspersed among the crowd a troop of his soldiers, armed but disguised in civilian dress, with orders not to use their swords, but to beat any rioters with cudgels. He now from his tribunal gave the agreed signal. 

Large numbers of the Jews perished, some from the blows which they received, others trodden to death by their companions in the ensuing flight. Cowed by the fate of the victims, the multitude was reduced to silence."

Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.60-62

"He spent money from the sacred treasury in the construction of an aqueduct to bring water into Jerusalem, intercepting the source of the stream at a distance of thirty-five kilometers. The Jews did not acquiesce in the operations that this involved; and tens of thousands of men assembled and cried out against him, bidding him relinquish his promotion of such designs. Some too even hurled insults and abuse of the sort that a throng will commonly engage in. 

He thereupon ordered a large number of soldiers to be dressed in Jewish garments, under which they carried clubs, and he sent them off this way and that, thus surrounding the Jews, whom he ordered to withdraw. When the Jews were in full torrent of abuse he gave his soldiers the prearranged signal. 

They, however, inflicted much harder blows than Pilate had ordered, punishing alike both those who were rioting and those who were not. But the Jews showed no faint-heartedness; and so, caught unarmed, as they were, by men delivering a prepared attack, many of them actually were slain on the spot, while some withdrew disabled by blows. Thus ended the uprising."

 
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177  http://www.bible-history.com/quotes/flavius_josephus_4.html
For all said here I don't see him as a bad governor, on the opposite - build aqueducts etc to improve the life of the people there, not for his own pleasure; and he was supposed to crush rebellions, this was his job. s for the story about Jesus - what was hi supposed to do, release someone who the Jews themselves said was a troublemaker? And on what excuse, only because ...what? The NT is a religious work with it's own agenda, of course they would villify Pilate - but objectively he had no choice in the matter. And hence he was the inspiration for my favorite song from my favorite rock opera 'Jesus Christ Superstar':




Edited by Don Quixote - 18-Mar-2012 at 17:51
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2012 at 19:37
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  Quote Leroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2012 at 15:02
The Pontii were a Samnite family, he was of equestrian rank.

My view is that he was a weak man who knew right from wrong, but would not do the right thing if it had to be done at great personal expense.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2012 at 18:33
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  Quote Leroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2012 at 08:39
From Eusebius, Church History, 2

Chapter 2. How Tiberius was affected when informed by Pilate concerning Christ.

1. And when the wonderful resurrection and ascension of our Saviour were already noised abroad, in accordance with an ancient custom which prevailed among the rulers of the provinces, of reporting to the emperor the novel occurrences which took place in them, in order that nothing might escape him, Pontius Pilate informed Tiberius of the reports which were noised abroad through all Palestine concerning the resurrection of our Saviour Jesus from the dead.

2. He gave an account also of other wonders which he had learned of him, and how, after his death, having risen from the dead, he was now believed by many to be a God. They say that Tiberius referred the matter to the Senate, but that they rejected it, ostensibly because they had not first examined into the matter (for an ancient law prevailed that no one should be made a God by the Romans except by a vote and decree of the Senate), but in reality because the saving teaching of the divine Gospel did not need the confirmation and recommendation of men.

3. But although the Senate of the Romans rejected the proposition made in regard to our Saviour, Tiberius still retained the opinion which he had held at first, and contrived no hostile measures against Christ.

4. These things are recorded by Tertullian, a man well versed in the laws of the Romans, and in other respects of high repute, and one of those especially distinguished in Rome. In his apology for the Christians, which was written by him in the Latin language, and has been translated into Greek, he writes as follows:

5. But in order that we may give an account of these laws from their origin, it was an ancient decree that no one should be consecrated a God by the emperor until the Senate had expressed its approval. Marcus Aurelius did thus concerning a certain idol, Alburnus. And this is a point in favor of our doctrine, that among you divine dignity is conferred by human decree. If a God does not please a man he is not made a God. Thus, according to this custom, it is necessary for man to be gracious to God.

6. Tiberius, therefore, under whom the name of Christ made its entry into the world, when this doctrine was reported to him from Palestine, where it first began, communicated with the Senate, making it clear to them that he was pleased with the doctrine. But the Senate, since it had not itself proved the matter, rejected it. But Tiberius continued to hold his own opinion, and threatened death to the accusers of the Christians. Heavenly providence had wisely instilled this into his mind in order that the doctrine of the Gospel, unhindered at its beginning, might spread in all directions throughout the world.


And Pilate's suicide

Chapter 7. Pilate's Suicide.

It is worthy o
f note that Pilate himself, who was governor in the time of our Saviour, is reported to have fallen into such misfortunes under Caius, whose times we are recording, that he was forced to become his own murderer and executioner; and thus divine vengeance, as it seems, was not long in overtaking him. This is stated by those Greek historians who have recorded the Olympiads, together with the respective events which have taken place in each period.


Other writings about Pilate:

Giving Up of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)
Death of Pilate (unknown date; late)

Letters ascribed to Pilate:

Report of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)

Letter of Pontius Pilate (unknown date; late)


Interestingly, Pontius Pilate is venerated as a saint in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and his wife, Claudia Procula, is venerated by the Ethiopian and Eastern Orthodox Churches.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2012 at 10:14
Originally posted by Leroy

The Pontii were a Samnite family, he was of equestrian rank.

My view is that he was a weak man who knew right from wrong, but would not do the right thing if it had to be done at great personal expense.

I didn't now he was a Samnite, thank you.
As for right and wrong - it's a question of POV and the way one is raised, there is no universal above-human understanding of what is right and wrong; so what seems evident right/wrong dichotomy to one is not evident for another. For a certain native tribe in say, Africa, a revenge action is the right thing to do, when for a person living in a law-based society it's a definitely wrong - just a question of POVs.

I don't think Pilate was weak, he did what he had to do - there is this rebel guy, his people what him dead, and as a Roman governor he is supposed to ensure peace and quash possible rebellions - so to personally protect Jesus would be seen as a biased, not to say a dangerous action, like letting a trouble-maker go.
This is my opinion anyway.
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