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Yugoslav
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Topic: ICTY: Croatians guilty of ethnic cleansing of Serb Posted: 18-Apr-2011 at 13:54 |
Two Croatian commanders of the 1990s war against the Serbs have received lengthy jail terms for war crimes
in a landmark verdict that incriminated the entire Zagreb political
leadership of the time for waging a campaign of terror, bombing and
murder aimed at ridding the country of its large Serbian minority. Judges
in The Hague found Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač guilty on eight of
nine counts for commanding operations that included the shelling of
civilians, the torching of Serbian homes in south-west Croatia,
the murder of hundreds of elderly Serbs and the forced exodus of at
least 20,000 from the Serbian minority rooted in the Dalmatian
hinterland for centuries. It represents the most damning verdict
on Croatia's conduct of the 1991-95 war in 17 years of investigations by
the international war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Gotovina
commanded the August 1995 operations that ended a four-year Serbian
insurgency and partition of Croatia and effectively won the war for
Zagreb. He was given a 24-year jail sentence. Markač, who commanded
police paramilitaries in the same Operation Storm, was jailed for 18 years. A third accused, Ivan Cermak, was acquitted. The
verdicts were met with outrage in the cities of Croatia where thousands
of former fighters rallied to watch the trial outcome transmitted from
The Hague on giant screens. The result represents a disaster for Croatia and a triumphant vindication for Serbia. The Croats have been told that the decisive victory of the war, sealing their independent statehood, was a war crime. The
judges went further than finding two former generals guilty, ruling
that the regime of the late President Franjo Tudjman planned a campaign
of systematic violence to empty south-western Croatia of its Serbian
minority in order to resettle the region with ethnic Croats. The current government in Zagreb was stunned by the sweeping verdict. "Having
learned that [the tribunal] has found that the Croatian state
leadership acted in a joint criminal enterprise, I must declare that to
the government of Croatia this is unacceptable," said Jadranka Kosor,
the prime minister. "Our view of the operation is absolutely clear: it
was a legitimate military and police action to liberate Croatian state
territory from occupation." President Ivo Josipović described the verdict as "shocking". The
outcome of the three-year trial creates major problems for Kosor. She
is squeezed on one side by a nationalist backlash supported by a
recalcitrant and powerful Catholic church, and on the other side by
pressure from Brussels to be more proactive on war crimes and the
treatment of minority Serbs as Croatia aims to conclude its negotiations
to join the European Union. Kosor is also seeking re-election later
this year. In the most telling findings, the panel of judges found
that the 1990s regime, led by the hardline Tudjman, plotted and then
carried out the policy of shelling, torching and killing to force a
Serbian exodus. Almost 200,000 Serbs fled Croatia in the summer and autumn of 1995. "Croatian
forces committed acts of murder, cruel treatment, inhumane acts,
destruction, plunder, persecution and deportation. There was a
widespread and systematic attack directed against this Serb civilian
population, [creating] an environment in which those present there had
no choice but to leave," the judges found. While focused on
Gotovina and two fellow accused, the trial has been the main opportunity
for probing the strategy and conduct of the wartime leadership of
Croatia. The key political leaders such as Tudjman, the defence minister
Gojko Šušak and the army chief Janko Bobetko all died before having to
face the courts. The Gotovina case has served as a proxy trial. A
former French legionnaire who returned to Croatia when the war erupted
in 1991, Gotovina commanded the central operations that won the war for
Croatia in August 1995, retaking the strategic town of Knin in the
Dalmatian hinterland. Knin was the seat of the four-year-old Serbian
rebellion that left Croatia crippled. Gotovina was indicted for war
crimes in 2001. Previously tipped off by contacts in the Croatian
government, he went on the run for four years until arrested in a
Tenerife hotel at the end of 2005. For years the Croatian government
blocked attempts to locate him until it performed a U-turn to unlock its
EU negotiations. For many Croats, especially on the right,
Gotovina is a national hero. Catholic bishops this week denounced the
tribunal, accusing it of deliberately confusing victim and aggressor. Operation
Storm was prosecuted at lightning speed, highly successfully with
strong American backing. It represented the denouement to the four-year
war. A fortnight earlier at Srebrenica in Bosnia, the Serbs had
committed the worst massacre of the Yugoslav wars, murdering almost
8,000 Muslim males. Following the Croatian rout of the Serbian
rebels, the war was over and Croatia's independence secured. Bosnia's
fragile peace pact was struck three months later. In the wake of
the victory Croatian forces went on the rampage, torching the homes of
elderly Serbs who did not flee and murdering hundreds.
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medenaywe
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Posted: 18-Apr-2011 at 14:08 |
All this war Yugoslave was disaster.Behind the war were two main goals:privatization and creation of power elite on territory of former Yugoslavia!
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 22-Jul-2013 at 09:52 |
In a controversial decision, with a think Majority of 3 to 2, an Appeal Chamber acquits Gotovina and Markač and finds no strong evidence beyond reasonable doubt of ethnic cleansing of Serbs from the Krajina region.
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 22-Jul-2013 at 13:21 |
In the past such acts would have been put down as being simply revenge, but remarkably it might be that the flagrant and heinous way the Serbs carried out their murderous rampage, much of it not caring about the world's press looking on, that has made it something, regardless what side commits them, that cannot any longer be overlooked.
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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yomud
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Posted: 23-Jul-2013 at 01:14 |
ethnic cleansing is crime against humanity i feel sorry for victims
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yomud are free people
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 26-Jul-2013 at 09:15 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
In the past such acts would have been put down as being simply revenge, but remarkably it might be that the flagrant and heinous way the Serbs carried out their murderous rampage, much of it not caring about the world's press looking on, that has made it something, regardless what side commits them, that cannot any longer be overlooked. |
Er, are you making fun of me because of the bold?
It's hard to say that it would've been disregarded as mere revenge. Since the investigation of the atrocities in the Balkan Wars in 1912 and 1913, there was more and more voice for their characterization as crimes and prosecution - this especially become more important in 1917, in the First World War, and with the establishment of the Nuremberg Trials subsequently after the Second World War in 1945.
However I thought that the things were finally moving towards the ability to charge and punish important victorious individuals. The ICTY seemed to be the first such example, with the dedicated ti prosecute suspected criminals regardless of nationality. If not of the great world powers, at least the little nations. It comes to me with great disappointment that it seems that, while there are obviously some improvements when it comes to ad hoc international criminal tribunals and in general international criminal law, the concept of victor's justice still seems to maintain a significant hold over the ability to equally implement law and realize full-scale justice.
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 27-Jul-2013 at 21:25 |
It is interesting you mention an investigation looking into atrocities from Balkan wars from the first part of the twentieth century. Are you able to pinpoint the atrocities you talk of, Yugoslav, and how the investigations developed, and what the conclusions were? I wasn't aware of the investigations you were talking off, but I'm guessing that at the time they might have been the exception rather than the rule, with much more clarity coming with the Geneva convention of 1949. I would agree with you on the moving forward towards the charging of suspects. However, and this is if memory suits, these proceedings can only go forward when someone instigates an investigation.
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 02:19 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
It is interesting you mention an investigation looking into atrocities from Balkan wars from the first part of the twentieth century. Are you able to pinpoint the atrocities you talk of, Yugoslav, and how the investigations developed, and what the conclusions were? I wasn't aware of the investigations you were talking off, but I'm guessing that at the time they might have been the exception rather than the rule, with much more clarity coming with the Geneva convention of 1949. |
This is not quite the place to do so, but if you're interested, a thread over at the appropriate history section should be opened.
It is not an exception, but the very first international investigation regarding a conflict. In historiography this is, precisely due to that, credited as an immensely important event in the development of peace and reconciliation studies.
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
I would agree with you on the moving forward towards the charging of suspects. However, and this is if memory suits, these proceedings can only go forward when someone instigates an investigation. |
I don't understand what this means. I am talking about a drastically different conclusion of an international court - the initial Trial Chamber found that the Croatian state and military leadership had planned an executed ethnic cleansing and sentenced two of the three indicted Croatian generals to very high sentences, while the Majority of the Appeal Chamber overturned the judgement, acquitting them and expressing lack of conviction in the ethnic cleansing plan, which originally targeted Franjo Tudjman as the key man in the atrocity.
An investigation by the ICTY Prosecution has already been handled and finished, the local investigators are continuing even today; what I am question is the Appeal Chamber's final verdict.
Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 01-Aug-2013 at 04:30
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 04:11 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
It is interesting you mention an investigation looking into atrocities from Balkan wars from the first part of the twentieth century. Are you able to pinpoint the atrocities you talk of, Yugoslav, and how the investigations developed, and what the conclusions were? I wasn't aware of the investigations you were talking off, but I'm guessing that at the time they might have been the exception rather than the rule, with much more clarity coming with the Geneva convention of 1949. |
This is not quite the place to do so, but if you're interested, a thread over at the appropriate history section should be opened.
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I look forward to you opening such a thread, Yugoslav, when you're able.
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 04:20 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
It is interesting you mention an investigation looking into atrocities from Balkan wars from the first part of the twentieth century. Are you able to pinpoint the atrocities you talk of, Yugoslav, and how the investigations developed, and what the conclusions were? I wasn't aware of the investigations you were talking off, but I'm guessing that at the time they might have been the exception rather than the rule, with much more clarity coming with the Geneva convention of 1949. |
It is not an exception, but the very first international investigation regarding a conflict.
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If this was the very first international investigation regarding a conflict, at the time, then how could it be anything other than an exception, Yugoslav?
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 04:35 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
I would agree with you on the moving forward towards the charging of suspects. However, and this is if memory suits, these proceedings can only go forward when someone instigates an investigation. |
I don't understand what this means.
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All I was saying is that for an investigation to go ahead someone needs to ask for one.
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 20:44 |
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
It is interesting you mention an investigation looking into atrocities from Balkan wars from the first part of the twentieth century. Are you able to pinpoint the atrocities you talk of, Yugoslav, and how the investigations developed, and what the conclusions were? I wasn't aware of the investigations you were talking off, but I'm guessing that at the time they might have been the exception rather than the rule, with much more clarity coming with the Geneva convention of 1949. |
It is not an exception, but the very first international investigation regarding a conflict. | If this was the very first international investigation regarding a conflict, at the time, then how could it be anything other than an exception, Yugoslav? |
An exception is when something is at odds with everything before and after; this not being the case. Would you say that the League of Nations was an exception among international organizations? Or in a similar question, would you characterize the 1814/5 Congress of Vienna an exception among international conferences?
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
Originally posted by Yugoslav
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising
I would agree with you on the moving forward towards the charging of suspects. However, and this is if memory suits, these proceedings can only go forward when someone instigates an investigation. |
I don't understand what this means.
| All I was saying is that for an investigation to go ahead someone needs to ask for one. |
But the Serbs are asking and there is no doubt there. They plead the Office of the Prosecution of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia files a request of review at the Appeal Chamber at the case of Gotovina et al, in hopes of eventually getting a revised opinion. The ICTY prosecutors have neither confirmed nor denied requesting revision, despite hinting that as a possibility due to their complete rejection of the final judgement. Since a verdict can be brought into question only with the resurgence of new evidence, this seems unlikely - as they aren't opening up an investigation in order to procure new evidence.
As for Croatia, the Croatian generals are regarded as heroes. Gotovina and the others are veered national heroes and even if someone asked the local authorities to initiate an investigation against them, which would be due to political and societal reasons virtually unimaginable and thus impossible, they would be able to do little because they fold down under an international court (the ICTY), meaning that the Croats (just like the Serbs too) could hypothetically only transfer potential evidence to the The Hague Tribunal at maximum length.
Edited by Yugoslav - 01-Aug-2013 at 20:45
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TheAlaniDragonRising
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Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 21:37 |
Originally posted by Yugoslav
An exception is when something is at odds with everything before and after; this not being the case. Would you say that the League of Nations was an exception among international organizations? Or in a similar question, would you characterize the 1814/5 Congress of Vienna an exception among international conferences?
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Generally speaking, Yugoslav, when stating exception either side of the time would be considered. However, stating an exception at the time narrows that field somewhat up to the time in question. Now as you have said yourself it was the first of its kind, this could hardly be anything else but an exception at the time.
As this wasn't really a part of the subject matter of this thread, so you have kindly opened an additional thread, Atrocities during the Balkan wars, further referencing to this should be moved over to that.
Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 01-Aug-2013 at 21:47
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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Yugoslav
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Posted: 19-Nov-2013 at 05:55 |
With a one-year transitional period being finished and the Prosecution abandoning its plans to request a Judgement Revision, the process has been terminated and the verdict has become final, never to be question by any court in the world.
Once again, thousands rejoice and yelp in pain.
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"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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