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10 Criticisms of Israel

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 10 Criticisms of Israel
    Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 12:15
I will list 10 common criticisms of the Israeli state and its policies. My intent behind this thread is to get at the major concerns about the middle east conflicts and hope to arrive at a grey area of compromise. Note: the criticisms will be taken from New York Times Bestseller The Case For Israel by Alan Dershowitz, which I am currently reading.

On whether I recommend this book, it is blatant Pro-Israeli propanganda and completely one-sided. So, I suggest pro-Israelis read it and pro-Palestinians avoid it. If you are on the fence read The Case for Israel but read a Pro-Palestinian book afterwards. So, here are the criticisms:

1. Israel is a Colonial, Imperialist state.

2. European Jews displaced Palestinians.

3. The Zionist movement was a plot to colonize all of Palestine.

4. The Balfour Declaration was not international law.

5. The Israelis are unwilling to share Palestine.

6. The Jews have exploited the memory of the Holocaust to garner sympathy for Israel.

7. The U.N. 1947 partition of Palestine was unfair to the Palestinians.

8. Israel created the Palestinian refugee crisis.

9. The Israeli occupation is unjustified.

10. Israel is ONE of the prime human rights violators in the world.


Note: I will act as a third party in this thread by only attempting to provoke discussion. Also, let's keep this discussion civilized please.

Source: Alan Dershowitz. The Case for Israel. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley and Sons inc., 2003)
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 01:40
Israel is not a colonial, Imperialist state.

The land that Israel occupies is holy land for three of the worlds biggest religions. The land itself has been fought over for centuries. The land has been in the hands of the Arabs and the Jews many times throughout history. BOTH groups have a right to that land.

Now, people will argue that Palestinians had the land when it was taken from them. Well, that is true but the British technically controlled that area. Now, the British were not native to that land, but the Jews are.

You cna make a good argument about Israel being a human rights abuser, but the Palestinians far surpass the Israelis in terms of human rights abuse.  One side attacks military targets (though mistakes do happen)......the other side purposely targets innocent women and children. There are militant israelis who fight terror with terror, but in terms of sheer human rights abuse, the Palestinians are much worse than the Israelis.

Simply saying that the deal made in 1947 and the use of the holocaust by the Jews to garner sympathy is the problem just isn't correct at all.

The hostility between the jews and Arabs and the fight for the land that the Israelis occupy goes back centuries. It has more to do with religion than anything else. And neither sides's religion is more correct than the others. Neither side has more of a right to that land than the other side does.

and if Israelis are unwilling to share Palestinian land as you say...........then why has Israel started to hand over contorl of many cities to the Palestinians???




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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 04:55

You cna make a good argument about Israel being a human rights abuser, but the Palestinians far surpass the Israelis in terms of human rights abuse.  One side attacks military targets (though mistakes do happen)......the other side purposely targets innocent women and children. There are militant israelis who fight terror with terror, but in terms of sheer human rights abuse, the Palestinians are much worse than the Israelis.

This is stinking bullsh*t. Israel killed way more Palestinians than Palestinians killed Israelis. And most of the Palestinians killed are civillians and children. Read from the BBC:

3,135 killed by security forces in the West Bank and Gaza including 627 aged under 18, 181 killed in extrajudicial executions and 288 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of these assassinations.

656 children, more than %20 of the dead. Military targets oh yeah. And this is the number of Israelis killed by the Palestinians:

431 civilians killed in Israel
including 78 aged under 18

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3694350.stm

BBC took the data from an Israeli source.

Besides killing, Israel destroys the homes of innocent Palestinians, detains them at will, sets up roadblocks, etc. etc. Israel is an apartheid state. In defiance of UN resolutions, it treats the Palestinians as sub-humans. It needs to be excluded from the international community like South Africa used to be.



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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 05:11
Originally posted by Illuminati

..then why has Israel started to hand over contorl of many cities to the Palestinians???
to shut the public's mouth.
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 05:37

Something that people tend to forget is that there were also Israeli terrorists - Irgun - killing Arabs way before the creation of Israel with the intent of taking land by frightening Arabs off. In fact, Jews and Muslims lived peacefully with each other for thousands of years before the arrival of the European Jews in the 20th century.

The big problem is that each side holds that their opinions are "facts". As such there is no discussion of who is right and who is wrong, facts are facts. This enables each side to deny the other side even the right to disagree with such "facts".

Denial of the other side is polarization, there is no middle ground and will never be until each side recognizes that the other's point of view is as valid as their own. In a polarized situation such recognition is connected with betrayal.

So, in order for there to be even a tiny step towards the resolution of the problem, each side must betray its own position.
Though it is a betrayal of a position that for many defines their existence, it is the first step to becoming a human being. People who hold so strongly to their views that they can deny the humanity of others have abandoned their own humanity.



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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:05
as far as israelis also killing more palestinians......Palestinians
use children as suicide bombers. They use children to smuggle
weapons.

Israel is controlled by a legitimate government, Palestine is
controlled by Hamas. Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.

Now, as I said earlier israel has is militant terrorist groups also.
netiher side is completely innocent of terrorism, but one side
clearly

And which side started 3 wars against the other side?? The
Arabs tried to invad Israel 3 seperate times. Israel is just a
much stronger nation whose military is is better than the Arab
Armies. example being the Six Day War.

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing. So what if israel killed
more people. Israel is the one who is attacking the terrorists
before they terrorists attack them. Of course teh are going to kill
more. That doesn't mean the palestinians are more just in this
case.

Plus, israel has a much better ability to take out terrorists than
the palestinians do to kill israelis. And don't forget that the
Palestinians hide in and around women and children. their
bomb shops are always found in apartment buildings.

If palestinians don't want so many civilian casualties then they
should stop hiding behind women and children
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 11:55
Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans? the only difference is that Palestinians are Muslims, and they're willing to kill themselves along with the enemy( it's called Jihad in Islam). But you're right, that's crazy and Hamas is a terrorist organization, but let's not forget, Israel is the invader.
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 14:06

Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans?

Ironic analogy.

Now, people will argue that Palestinians had the land when it was taken from them. Well, that is true but the British technically controlled that area. Now, the British were not native to that land, but the Jews are.

The jews are no more native to the levant than the hungarians are to russia. Both migrated more than a thousand years ago. Yet the jewish claim is the strongest? If anything they should have been given Khazaria, the latest jewish state before Israel.

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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:15

Originally posted by ramin

Remember WWII? France? Nazi army and French partisans? the only difference is that Palestinians are Muslims, and they're willing to kill themselves along with the enemy( it's called Jihad in Islam). But you're right, that's crazy and Hamas is a terrorist organization, but let's not forget, Israel is the invader.

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.

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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 15:20
Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.



Americans sound much more logical when they don't talk about native people!  (hypotheticaly)


Ok Let's go back to the discussion:
first you should clear out what do u mean by "that land has been in the hands of many different groups"? Do you mean Italy, Iran, Turkey, Egypt have a right on Palestine as well?

but whatever, OK... Israel & Palestinians are the native people and they've lived there in peace together for many years -- AGREED. But what right do Jews have to throw their neighbors out of the land, destroying their homeland and their style of living? (Considering Jews' migration from that region long long time ago)

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 22:26

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 22:37
Once the oil barrels run dry, it won't matter..

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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 23:16
Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.



Americans sound much more logical when they don't talk about native people!  (hypotheticaly)


Ok Let's go back to the discussion:
first you should clear out what do u mean by "that land has been in the hands of many different groups"? Do you mean Italy, Iran, Turkey, Egypt have a right on Palestine as well?

but whatever, OK... Israel & Palestinians are the native people and they've lived there in peace together for many years -- AGREED. But what right do Jews have to throw their neighbors out of the land, destroying their homeland and their style of living? (Considering Jews' migration from that region long long time ago)



I wasn't referring to the Europeans, I was referring to the Natives.....Israelis and the Palestinians.

Jews never totally left that region either. You want to blame someone for the creation of Isreal...blame the UK and the UN. They are the ones that created the state for the Jews. Don't blame the Jewish for flocking to a nation that was set up for them by the UN.

Both sides perpetuate the problem. There are unjust murders on both sides. But, I do see one side standing in the way of peace more than the other. Which side ruined the Camp David Peace Accords??? The Palestinians did, because Arafat was a greedy terrorist who would give no concessions. His corruption has become even more apparent now that he is dead.

The main difference between the groups is that Israel has relative control over its civilian population and has a working government who can abide by a cease-fire.  The Palestinian Authority does not have enough control. groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad do nothing but stand in the way of peace. I see Abbas as a good person who truly wants peace. He needs to be the one in control. Not the terrorist groups.


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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 00:00
There was never a Palestinian state in history but something has to be done about their condition. They are Jordanians and Syrians but this land has been in the hand of many people. Before the Islamic invasion it belonged to the Romans and Byzantines for centuries. The name was given to the land by the Romans after they sent the Jews into exile, Palestine=Phillistines.
Question:
Why are their rich Arab brethern doing so little to help the Palestinians?
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 00:03
Originally posted by Genghis

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.



I agree.

I just hope you'll be a good prez.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 06:33
Why are their rich Arab brethern doing so little to help the Palestinians?

They're not wanting to harm their interest with good relations of the United States I think.
But does it matter? The fact that Arab countries don't help the Palestinians doesn't say that no-one should help the Palestinians?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 08:06
Originally posted by Illuminati

once again you are ignoring history. Israel is not the invader. No one is necessarily the invader. It is just as much their land as it is the Palestinians. that land has been in the hands of many different groups all throughout history.

Jews have been in that region for centuries.

First of all, Jarusalem, the center of three big religions, has its name from an ancient pagan Arabic God, "Salem", and the city originally belongs to Arabs, But noone can deny the Jewish existance there for more than two thousand and 500 years.

Jews lived there together with Arabs since ancient times, but this doesnt mean Israel have the right to own there, because Jews lived all aover the world and they lost their homelands. And Jews havent ruled Palestine since ancient times. Today, Arabic settlements are very old and they own Palestine. If there happened a Jewish genocide in Europe, this doesnt mean that you have the right to violate other nations' rights, even to protect another nation's rights. So the action of collecting Jews all over the Europe and placing them into another country's (which has nothing to do with all these genocides or actions) borderlands is an ignorant and violating ideology since the beginning.

I wonder what would happen if a nation comitted a genocide to Turks all over Europe and after this the UN agreed on colecting all survivors and placing them to their homelands (imagine that there is no country such Turkey). So would they be able to divide all mid-southern Russia , northwestern China, Eastern Kazakhstan and Kyrgizistan and form a new independent Turkish state there? I dont think so. So what was the sin of Palestinians? Living in their homelands?

And all these violations arent all about invading another country's lands. Human rights violations and innocent people's massacres are the biggest problem. The Israel forces didnt only invade those lands, but comitted huge civilian massacres, that cannot be identified as "mistakes". While the Palestinians are trying to protect their houses and family's by throwing stones and attacking with their Ak-47s, the Israel forces are attacking those civilians with their tanks and massive warmachines. Is this a paranoia or hatred? Well, lets figure it out...

Anyway, those lands need peace and I wish it happens soon. We are all fed up seeing soldiers killing children or terrorists attacking civilians everyday on TV...

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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 08:36

Israel is thought legitimate only because it is funded by the US government.

Originally posted by Illuminati

Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.
Don't confuse US with UN.

Originally posted by Illuminati

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing.
?? You question and deny BBC? Oh well, resembles a six year old child shutting his ears and saying "I'm not listening!"....
 

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 09:14
Originally posted by Genghis

Unlike a lot of Americans I do not like israel at all.  They have just as much blood on their hands as the Arabs do and the very creation of their state was a massive act of theft from the Palestineans.

It is because of Israel that America is hated throughout the Middle East, without Israel America would probably have relations with Arab nations on par with that of European nations and others.  It's also illogical, the Israelis have 6 million people and no oil, the Moslems have a billion people and the majority of the world's oil.  However the Jewish vote and coffers keep politicians supporting Israel.  When I become President I'll end all that and hopefully be the first American President who's popular in the Mideast.

haha, Well you have my vote, as long as your not Republican.

Yeah I don't agree with being to friendly with Israel. I think we should just cut ties with them. Our gov't says they want to keep America safe, yet we defend Israel which is basiclly harming us involuntarily by causing alot of hatred towards us, and criticism. I think America should do things in the best interest of itself without stepping on to many toes.



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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 10:57
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Israel is thought legitimate only because it is funded by the US government.

Originally posted by Illuminati

Which is on the UN list of terrorist groups.
Don't confuse US with UN.

Originally posted by Illuminati

As far as the BBc link. It means nothing.
?? You question and deny BBC? Oh well, resembles a six year old child shutting his ears and saying "I'm not listening!"....
 

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