Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Light Eye Color & Indo-European Migrations
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Light Eye Color & Indo-European Migrations
    Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 03:18
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

How can an established civilization which spanned over 2 million kilometres completely adopt a foreign culture including language without leaving even a trace of the original culture and language which it once used to follow..?And from the adopted language how can so much of different languages dialects(other devnagari languages other than sanskrit which is spoken in India) originate within such a short period of time say 1000 years..?And how can so much of literatures written in the newly adopted language(sanskrit) within a couple of centuries..?
 
Did you know that the number of Persian handwriting books in India is more than Iran? Maybe you think India was also the origin of Persian culture? What is the distance between Britain and and India? I don't know why English is an official language in India! Maybe there was also a mass migration from Britain to India?
 
You can go to the southeast of Iran to see some traces of original Indian culture and language, people who live there speak Brahui language, a Dravidian language which was spoken in the large part of Indian subcontinent before adoption of Indo-European culture. Brahui people have preserved their original Indian culture, the difference between their language and Indo-European languages is clear.
I dont know about persian hand writing books,
but English is not the official language of India,Hindi is.And present education system of India was largely designed by British and curriculam was also decided by them even after freedom the curriculam continued.Such a sort of Education system design is unknown in Prehistoric period.
And how many of Indians do you think are capable of speaking  english..?
And what about they still being capable of speaking their colocial languages.
In this adoption that you proposed the most astonishing thing is that there is not a single  trace of the old language or culture that they followed.What does that say..? 
A complete black out and then start of Aryan culture
and then composition of 17500+ manuscripts within the next 200 years...?

Rigveda  has 10 Mandalas(ie seperate books) each containing several hundreds and thousands of Hymns ie all 10mandalas totals at around 10552 hymns.These were composed by mainly 10 Rishi families ie several generations of 10 Rishi families as per data available from rigveda.So Imagine about other 17500+ books being written on the basis Rik,Yajur and other vedas in that periond of time.The Aruyans would have never got time to eat drink or sleep for a few centuries after the migration
And the Cultural similarities and that of the language are not speaking about the direction of its flow.
Till date there is no proof available for a dravidian language being spoken in Northern part of India.

And apart from that Rigveda itself speaks about Saraswati banks being the abode to several Aryan tribes & kings for several generations and most of the mandalas of Rigveda except 4th is praising saraswati and Saraswati has several hymns dedicated to her.
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 03:54

Dear Cyrus,

First thing I didn’t understand in this adoption thing is

Why should Indians adopt a completely foreign language and culture , when they already have a well established culture and language..?

How did they completely forget their original culture and language immediately after the adoption of new ones..?

 Persian presence in India is well attested historically and in all other ways.The official court language of many Islamic sultans was Persian ie it was enforced and that’s why Persian gained popularity in India.But even after 600 years of Islamic regime Indians didn’t forget their original language or culture.. instead they learned one more language

 Similarly English.During 100-200 years of their regime most of the judges were British and court and other offices used English as their language and every small province had a British resident as the tax collector/law officer, so Indians were forced to learn English.But after 600years of Islamic rule + 200 years of British rule also Indians didn’t forget their original language and culture.But learned one more language

 Then why could such a loss of memory took palce in case of the so called Aryan migration/invasion/culture adoption..?



Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 09-Dec-2010 at 05:02
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 04:04
Originally posted by balochii

^ rig veda mentions the drink (soma) all the time, which in only available in either centra asia, afghanistan and northern pakistan, its not there in india. (soma) is a mountain drink.

In my earlier posts i have once told that Rigvedic geography had no soma  plant mentioned in it.Rsis believed that it was brought to them by a bird of prey from far away lands.Soma they used to offer as sacrifice to their gods.

Rig veda has a hymn in 9th mandala dedicated to Soma pavamana which speaks about how they know the origin of Soma (Rig veda 9.68.06) as per Griffith's translation it is

"The sages knew the form of him the Gladdener, What time the Falcon brought the plant(soma) from far away.

Him who assures success, they beautified in streams, the stalk who yearned therefore, mighty and meet for praise"


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 08-Dec-2010 at 09:59
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 04:20
Originally posted by balochii

 aryvarta did not inlude 80% of today;s india, it might have only included parts of punjab, himchal, haryana thats it, it included most of northern pakistan, which was probably the center, or perhaps northern afghanistan was the center, but it wasn't todays india.
 

No it Ranged from the banks Ganga and Yamuna in the east to banks Indus in the west and sarasvati was its centre.

The Hymn 179 (a praise of Indra) of 10th mandala was composed by three rishis 1) Sibi Ausinara 2) Pratardana Kasiraja 3) Vasumanas Rauhitasva
Of the three the second ie Pratardana is "Kasiraja" ie King of Kasi a gangetic city which is present days "Banares"
And this Pratardana is one of the 11 kings of Bharatha dynasty refered to in Rigveda.

Rigveda has references of Sarasvati in 66 of its verses in 9 mandalas out of 10 except the 4th mandala.It has more than 3 Hymns dedicated to Sarsvati.
Indus or Sindhu is refered in 21 verses in 6 mandalas out of 10. ie mandalas except 2,3,6 &7.Sindhu and its tributaries are coming only second to sarasvati.

Most of the hymns are composed by different rishi families and of different generations showing their continuous presence on itsbanks.


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 08-Dec-2010 at 10:00
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 13:31
^ lets say even if you are correct of location of sarasvati (pak/indianborder), it doesn't include most what is india today. It is clear from Rig Veda that it was written on the pakistani side of the border, mostly northern pakistan or today's northern punjab area, it has nothing to do with 80% of india of today which a dravdian land, when empires like Maurya, Gupta invaded the (punjab) area from the east, they must have killed or pushed large chunks of the orginal aryans out of the area, perhaps they went north in the moutains. Aryans who ever they were, were a much smaller population of people then the dravidian indians. The Dravdians of India which today are 80-90% of the population of india adopted the culture, even in the north today most people would be classified as dravidian or atleast hybrid, dravdian aryan, if you look at a (punjabi) today he looks mix of a iranian and dravidian.
 
Also what i believe is that there were 2 or even 3 branches of aryan people, one was located in the northern part of pakistan/Kashmir/Punjab area who wrote the rig vedas, the other was located in the northern afghanistan and Iran, who practiced the zoroastrian relgion and spoke avestan.


Edited by balochii - 08-Dec-2010 at 17:57
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 22:33

Most of Sarsavati is in todays India only parts of it are in Pakistan.All major sites on Sarasvati banks are in India.


What is clear from Rigveda..?  Can you clarify which part of Rigveda is speaking about the pakistani origin…?

Provide proofs for your mauryan conquest of Aryans…

Explain the adoption..I mean please answer the questions of my earlier posts so that everybody will be convinced.

Balochii dont get carried away by your own theories,if you are proposing a new Aryan theory as you did now,then you need to prove it .So provide proofs for your claims.

All the Vedas are centered mainly around Uttarpradesh and Haryana.But Arya varta included much of Pakistan too.If you say rigveda originated in Pakistan then you need to prove it.

 

Provide proofs to justify your claims instead of proposing new theories.

Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 08-Dec-2010 at 22:44
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 22:39
Originally posted by balochii

^ Saraswati's location is not proven except to nationalistic hindus, most of rig veda talks about places in northern part of continent, places like swat in northern pakistan, rig veda was definatly written in northern pakistan or kashmir, 

If Sarasvati's location is not proven how do you claim that it is in pakistan..?
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 23:26
^ I still say its not proven, only indians claim the location, i was only pointing out what you think it which is near the pakistani border
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 23:31
Originally posted by ranjithvnambiar

Most of Sarsavati is in todays India only parts of it are in Pakistan.All major sites on Sarasvati banks are in India.


What is clear from Rigveda..?  Can you clarify which part of Rigveda is speaking about the pakistani origin…?

Provide proofs for your mauryan conquest of Aryans…

Explain the adoption..I mean please answer the questions of my earlier posts so that everybody will be convinced.

Balochii dont get carried away by your own theories,if you are proposing a new Aryan theory as you did now,then you need to prove it .So provide proofs for your claims.

All the Vedas are centered mainly around Uttarpradesh and Haryana.But Arya varta included much of Pakistan too.If you say rigveda originated in Pakistan then you need to prove it.

 

Provide proofs to justify your claims instead of proposing new theories.
 
Look at this map yourself, most rivers are on the pakistani side and even afghan side, also ganga and yamuna are mentioned very few times in rig vide and perhaps only the northern parts of yamuna/ganga are mentioned, which are near the himalayas. Just look at the map, it clearly shows that it doesn't cover most of what is india today, but it does cover what is most pakistan and even afghanistan and parts of extreme north india near punjab/harayana. This clearly shows that aryans did not go south of these areas in to mainland india, thats why i say again 80% of indians who live south of these (river) areas are dravdians and aryans only lived in these river areas.


Edited by balochii - 08-Dec-2010 at 23:33
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2010 at 23:39
^ actually thanks again for showing the map, because it clearly points to what cyrus said earlier that only (some) north indians of today, mainly living in punjab/Haryana area could be considred aryan, the people who live places like Bengal, most of UP, central india, Mumbai, south india etc... are not aryans at all, they clearly adopted the culture. According to the map the center of vedic civilization was what is today northern pakistan, parts of north india Haryana/Punjab, Kashmir and eastern afghanistan. This was part of la arge aryan culture which streched from central asia all the to these places that i just mentioned
 
 


Edited by balochii - 08-Dec-2010 at 23:43
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 02:16
Where are you taking the whole story..?We have not even started.
Sarasvati banks are the place where aryans originated.
What does the map say..? It shows the trajectories of several Rivers which were promonent during Rigvedic period.
And Sarasvati had dried up in 2000BC ie 300 years before the so called invasion/migration/culture adoption.
And Rigveda attests through its 9 out of 10 mandalas about Sarasvati being a mighty river.That is during the composition of Rigveda Sarasvati was the mightiest of all rivers ie much before 2000BC.
Where does your Aryan culture ready for adoption stand then..? 
 
Rigveda speaks about five aryan tribes dwelling on the banks of Sarasvati.

Mandala 6

Hymn 61 (composer – Bharadvaja: Barhaspatya: )

12 Seven-sistered, sprung from threefold Source, the Five Tribes’ prosperor,  she must be Invoked in every deed of might.

 Apart from that it speaks about several Aryan kings who also resided on its bank.

Mandala 8

Hymn 21 ( composer – Bharadvaja: Barhaspatya: )

 17 Indra or blest Sarasvati alone bestows such wealth, treasure so great, or thou, O Citra, on the worshipper.

18 Citra is King, and only kinglings are the rest who dwell beside Sarasvati.

 It also says Purus to be a tribe who dwelled on its bank.

Mandala 7

Hymn 96 (composer – Vasistha: Maitravaaruni: )

 1 I sing a lofty song, for she is the mightiest, most divine of streams

Sarsavati will I exalt with hymns and lauds, O Vasistha, heaven and Earth.

2 When in fullness of their strength the purus dwell, Beauteous one, on thy grassy banks,

Favour us Thou, who hast Maruts for thy friends: stir up the bounty of our chiefs.

 The most prominent tribe mentioned in Rigveda are the Bharatas.Even there are many Rishis from this clan who composed many of the Rigvedic Hymns

And  Pradtardana,the King of Kasi who I mentioned in my earlier posts is a Bharata  and they were rulers of Kasi, and Kasi is in Uttarpradesh

And you are time and again taking the name of rigveda..What do you propose by saying Ganga and yamuna are refered very few times..? How many times is it mentioned...?


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 09-Dec-2010 at 02:43
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 02:29
Originally posted by balochii

^ actually thanks again for showing the map, because it clearly points to what cyrus said earlier that only (some) north indians of today, mainly living in punjab/Haryana area could be considred aryan, the people who live places like Bengal, most of UP, central india, Mumbai, south india etc... are not aryans at all, they clearly adopted the culture. According to the map the center of vedic civilization was what is today northern pakistan, parts of north india Haryana/Punjab, Kashmir and eastern afghanistan. This was part of la arge aryan culture which streched from central asia all the to these places that i just mentioned
 
 

How did this adoption take place...?
Before adopting the so called culture, what was their earlier culture..? What were their language..?
Why there is no proofs available to prove the existance of an earlier culture/language prior to the so called adoption..? Why there are no archaeological proofs available to justify the change in culture(ie material culture) after the so called adoption..?
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 02:44
^ old cultures get lost all the time, this is nothing new, actually what a i believe is that modern (hinduism) is a mixture aryan and dravdian cultures, so all was not lost, they just combined, modern indian culture is not pure aryan, it is a mixture of aryan/dravdian culture, but again most indians are not aryan themselves. Infact if you look today, india is becoming westernized, so just like this in the past, it was aryanized. Again just look at india's history, it has always adopted things from others, british, muslims, persians etc... so there is no reason to think it didn't adopt from aryans aswell

Edited by balochii - 09-Dec-2010 at 02:45
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 03:07
Please be sensible.What is this..? New mixture theory..?
Ya old cultures get lost but not without leaving remains & proofs
Then provide genetical proofs. to justify your claims..
Indo-Aryan languages and dravidian languages are different from each other,they have different literatures hinting different stories.

How do you propose that the adoption took place ..? and what do you say about the old culture..?
If you are proposing a mixture then which part of it is Aryan and which part is not in comparison with other Indo-European cultures..?
What was the religion of thenatives before the adoption..? and what was it after wards..?
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 03:39
^ dravdians languages are different, there you go you said it yourself, if the old culture wasn't there like you are saying where did the dravdian languages come from? just answer this
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 03:53
What are you proposing..?
Finally what is your theory..?
Tamil originated in south India and it is till date remaining there.
You are not able to justify your own claims and now you are saying this and that and trying to deviate the topic..?
Tell me what culture adoption are you proposing and why there are no trace of other languages other than devnagari(indo-aryan) and culture in North India..?When did the culture adoption take place and why...?


Edited by ranjithvnambiar - 09-Dec-2010 at 03:55
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699 		  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 04:13
^ it took place when the aryans arrived, it is simple as that, there is no way indians would invent a language gorup (indo european) and aryan culture that would streach from north india to northern europe, this is nothing but bs hindu nationalistic propoganda, there are civilizations being found in southern russia/central asia proving aryans were there, and they were not indians.
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 04:34
Proofs again Balochii...when did the so called aryans arrive..?what is the time line..?
and what is the proof for their arrival..?
So far no genetic proof is available..and archaeology also failed to attest such a migration.. what do you say about that..?
Back to Top
ranjithvnambiar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Mar-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672 		  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 05:06
Originally posted by balochii

^ it took place when the aryans arrived, it is simple as that, there is no way indians would invent a language gorup (indo european) and aryan culture that would streach from north india to northern europe, this is nothing but bs hindu nationalistic propoganda, there are civilizations being found in southern russia/central asia proving aryans were there, and they were not indians.

This is clear race Prejudice
Its because of this prejudice that AIT still prevails eventhough there is no proof(let it be genetic,archaeological,linguistic or astronomical) to justify anything related to it
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2010 at 05:40
ranjithvnambiar, let's talk about the main topic of this thread, as I said one of the characteristics of Indo-European people is their light eye color, it is clear that Indians look different, what do you think about it? Do you think all Indo-European peoples adopted Indian culture?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.