Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Interesting scenes from Iraq

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Interesting scenes from Iraq
    Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 12:42
Back to Top
Artaxiad View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 488
  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 13:13
The demonstration two years earlier was apparently staged.
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 13:13
What about the other groups such as the Sunnis, Christians and the Kurds? I would like to see America pull out soon but the whole region will explode if we do it now.

The article uses the words -If supporters of a militant Shiite.

I wonder what will happen with these smaller minoriity groups?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

"No, no to Satan!"

I told you so update: in Iraq, as all over the Islamic world, there will always be a contingent of people who believe that Sharia is the law of Allah, and that it is therefore much preferable to democracy, which is human-devised law. And they will resist democracy, and fight for Sharia.

I am told by two eyewitnesses that National Review's Rich Lowry, at NR's recent party for William F. Buckley, stated that because of President Bush's bold and decisive foreign policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East, "the radicals' whole house of cards could collapse within the next four years." This puerile prediction betrays a remarkable and hardly excusable lack of knowledge of the history and teachings of the Qur'an and Islam, and of the modern jihadist imperative as enunciated by people like Maududi and Qutb. What he doesn't understand (among other things) is that if this sort of demonstration really isn't happening in four years, which I think is doubtful, it will simply be biding its time until conditions are right for it again. Throughout Islamic history there are periods of quiescence and periods of jihadist fervor. We are in the latter after a long period of the former. The error that most modern analysts make is to mistake the proximate causes of the jihadist resurgence for its root causes, and to think that if those matters they have wrongly identified as root causes are addressed, the jihad will disappear. It will not disappear: it will only go underground, and that only temporarily. Rich: call me in 2009.

"Protesters Call for U.S. Pullout in Iraq," from AP, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:

    BAGHDAD, Iraq - Tens of thousands of supporters of a militant Shiite cleric filled central Baghdad's streets Saturday and demanded that American soldiers go home, marking the second anniversary of Baghdad's fall with shouts of "No, no to Satan!"

    To the west of the capital, 5,000 protesters issue similar demands in the Sunni Triangle city of Ramadi, reflecting a growing impatience with the U.S.-led occupation and the slow pace of returning control to an infant Iraqi government.

    The protest in Baghdad's famous Firdos Square was the largest anti-American demonstration since the U.S.-led invasion, but the turnout was far less than the 1 million called for by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr....

    Sunni Muslim clerics also called on their followers to protest Saturday, and a large crowd gathered in the central city of Ramadi, a Sunni stronghold. Iraq's Sunni minority was dominant under Saddam and is believed to make up the backbone of the country's insurgency.

    Sheikh Harth Al-Dhari, the secretary general of the influential Association of Muslim Scholars, praised both the al-Sadr protest, as well as the Sunni demonstration, telling Al-Jazeera satellite television: "We hail the demonstrations organized by the Iraqi people on the second black anniversary of their country's occupation."

Posted by Robert at 01:51 AM | Comments (13) | Email this entry | Print this entry
Message Announcing the Preparation for Jihad to be Carried from Iraq to Saudi Arabia

Will it spread???????

From the SITE Institute, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:

    A message posted on the internet to an al-Qaeda affiliated website concerning the current preparations for mujahideen in Iraq to travel to Saudi Arabia to clear the land of al-Haramain (Saudi Arabia) from al-Saud and their masters (the Americans)....

    According to the posting, the country of the two rivers has plenty of the lions of the mujahideen[to] clean our sacred country from al-Saud, the hypocrites and the masters, the crusaders.

    Praising the members of al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia the communiqu says the mujahideen in Arab peninsula did their duty until their blood was shed in the sake of Allah and they were killed for keeping this religion and fulfilling what the Prophets have said....

Posted by Robert at 01:36 AM | Comments (3) | Email this entry | Print this entry






Edited by eaglecap
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:00
The whole region is exploding right now anyway. It seems that you have fallen for the myths from the Bush propaganda machine. I read a bumper sticker the other day, it said "Bush lied, Soldiers died."
 
So we go into a foreign country under false pretenses and we continuosly tell our citizens that everything is going fine and that it will be alright. We are supposed to believe that democracy will take hold there. Now democarcy works if it comes from its own citizens and not by a constant foreign military presence.
 
By the way what ever happened to the threat levels we used to see on CNN all the time before the US presidential election?   (Remember the orange, yellow, red colors and so forth)
 
 
Ethnic tensions in Kirkuk dangerously high, raising fears of civil war


Fri Apr 8, 7:00 PM ET

By Tom Lasseter, Knight Ridder Newspapers

KIRKUK, Iraq - U.S. military officials are concerned that ethnic tensions could turn into widespread violence and, perhaps, civil war in Iraq's northern city of Kirkuk, setting a dangerous pattern for rest of the country.

Kirkuk oil fields hold around 9 million barrels of proven reserves and Kurdish talk of secession is at a fever pitch.

A bloc of Kurdish-led politicians received the majority of seats on the provincial council after January elections and is now threatening to fill most key positions with Kurds. Arab and Turkmen (also known as Turkomen) politicians protested with a series of walkouts and now refuse to show up at council meetings, where Kurdish leaders insist on speaking in their mother language.

The Kurds are also accelerating efforts to bring back families pushed out of Kirkuk and the surrounding province by former dictator Saddam Hussein during his massive resettlement campaigns aimed at weakening Kurdish opposition. The Kurds hope the influx will help make Kirkuk a part of the Iraqi region of Kurdistan and possibly provide an economic engine for an independent Kurdish nation. Breaking away from Iraq, though, would be difficult for the Kurds because of pressure from neighboring countries such as Iran and Turkey, which oppose an independent Kurdistan.

"We're worried about the domino effect of the Kurds getting the senior leadership positions and the Arabs and Turkomen going back to their constituencies and saying the Kurds have taken over, and the Turkomen and, to a greater extent, the Arabs rise up," said Lt. Col. Anthony Wickham, the U.S. Army's liaison to the Kirkuk council.

"Worst-case scenario is a civil war," he said. "The threat is out there. There are armed Arab groups, Turkomen groups that say they need to arm themselves, and the Kurds say, `We know how to keep the peace, we'll deploy the Peshmerga,'" a militia that numbers in the tens of thousands.

Wickham is worried not only about potential havoc in Kirkuk, but also about the destabilizing effect it would have across ethnically divided Iraq as it makes its way toward democracy.

Saddam used savage military might to suppress ethnic and religious groups that opposed him. With him gone, many of those groups are sorting out long-simmering tensions.

Rizqar Ali Hamajan, a Kirkuk council member and a senior official in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, a political party, said his party estimates that Saddam pushed about 600,000 Kurds out of the Kirkuk area. Not only should those people be able to return to the province - which has an estimated population of 1.5 million - but they should be able to bring their families with them, Hamajan said.

The province is about 40 percent Arab and 35 percent Kurd, according to U.S. officials in the area. The return of even a small percentage of those 600,000 and their families to Kirkuk would give Kurds a decisive numerical advantage.

Many in Iraq consider Kirkuk key in the effort to keep ethnic differences from tearing the nation apart. Kirkuk, as elsewhere in Iraq, has seen its share of battles between insurgents and U.S. and Iraqi forces, and, as ethnic tensions rise, the danger of individual attacks triggering wider violence has increased.

On March 19, for example, a yellow taxi pulled up in front of a police station and a passenger threw out a soda can. When an officer came out to inspect the can, it blew up, killing him. The next day, a roadside bomb at a traffic roundabout exploded near a truck full of police officers on their way to their comrade's funeral. Four officers were killed.

When police failed to find any leads, they returned to the traffic circle the following day and rounded up potential witnesses. Among them were two Turkmen vegetable vendors. While in custody, both vendors were beaten and tortured by a Kurdish officer who pushed lit cigarettes into their bodies, lashed them with cables and punched and kicked them in their faces, according to family accounts verified by U.S. military officials.

The two vendors were cousins of Tahsin Mohammed Kahya, a Turkmen who's the chair of the Kirkuk council and an immensely popular local politician.

His tribe called for massive protests and violence. The city stood on the brink.

"It could have been the spark," Wickham said.

Kahya asked his tribe to keep its guns away and to let the political process take its course. But he's far from certain that the peace will hold, especially given the provincial council's inability to appoint government leaders and the prospect of a Kurd-dominated government.

"If the decision-makers cannot agree, then it will go to the streets," he said. "If we fail, we will tell the people we have failed, and it's up to them to decide what they want to do - maybe then we would have a bad situation."

Maj. Gen. Joseph Taluto, who commands Task Force Liberty, the U.S. Army element stretching from just north of Baghdad to Kirkuk, also worries about the tensions. "As the politics goes down lower, I think the level of understanding (between ethnic groups) becomes less," and the result, he said, is bombs sometimes being placed on the road.

While U.S. officials used to intervene in local governmental affairs, choosing council members and making sure they all spoke with one another, they remained in the background after the Iraqi elections in January, letting Iraqis for the most part succeed or fail on their own accord.

The need for ethnic groups in Kirkuk to negotiate their differences is probably the most important issue facing Iraq today, Taluto said.

"What can Task Force Liberty do about that? Not a hell of a lot, frankly," he said.

Many Arabs and Turkomen say the Kurds are using force, when necessary, to push them out of Kirkuk. They accuse Kurds, who say they left the Peshmerga militia before joining the Iraqi army and police, of using their positions to intimidate people into leaving.

Hamajan, the Kurdish council member, denied there were any Peshmerga present in Kirkuk. He then added, smiling, that "the leader of the Peshmerga is about to become president of Iraq," referring to Jalal Talabani, a former Peshmerga commander who was elected president on Wednesday by the national assembly.

Outside Hamajan's office, Kurdish men in military fatigues holding AK-47s patrolled the gate.

U.S. officials confirmed that at least half the Iraqi army troops in Kirkuk are Kurds. Wickham said he knows of Arabs being taken from Kirkuk and put into a Kurd-controlled prison in nearby Sulaimaniyah, but he didn't know the specifics of who took them there or why.

Khalaf Farhan, a Sunni Arab and former army general in Saddam's army, said Iraqi soldiers raided his house last week. Just before he was blindfolded, Farhan said, he saw a large Kurdish-looking man who was speaking Kurdish.

Farhan, whose face was bruised and scratched and whose left eye was badly swollen days later, said he was beaten in the face with a rifle butt, punched and kicked.

When he was shoved into a vehicle outside, Farhan said, one of the soldiers leaned toward him and said, "OK, do you want to sell the house?"

In one area, at least 40,000 Kurds have returned to rebuild a series of small villages demolished by Saddam. Those families were given $1,000 each and building supplies by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan operating out of Sulaimaniyah, a neighboring province.

The resettlement of Kurds in Kirkuk is provided for by Iraq's transitional law, which also says that the decision about Kirkuk becoming a part of Kurdistan will "take into account the will of the people."

The Kurds interpret this to mean that a provincial referendum will decide the matter.

Many Arabs and Turkomen said the Kurds are pushing for resettlement not just out of a sense of historical justice, but to stack the chips in their favor for the referendum, and, ultimately, to break away from Iraq.

One of the few things that U.S. and Iraqi officials interviewed in Kirkuk agreed about was that if the Kurds went down that path, it would be a bloody one.

Back to Top
strategos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2005
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1096
  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:05
You better hope democracy can work there, because I do not believe it can work for Turkey then
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:19

By the way what ever happened to the threat levels we used to see on CNN all the time before the US presidential election?   (Remember the orange, yellow, red colors and so forth)

I watch CNN everday for a few mintues, the threat level has been there and its been yellow for awhile now.

 It seems that you have fallen for the myths from the Bush propaganda machine.

Fox news I think is the only news station that gives any kind of propaganda and thats because the owner is pro Bush, I could be wrong I'm trying to remember where I heard he was, but fox news usually only gets pro bush people. The other stations I see sometimes criticize the Bush adminstration and sometimes show the good which a news station should do, show both sides of the coin.

But all I reallly hear from CNN is the bad news of the war, all the car bombs and soldiers being injured and hurt, whats going on with the Iraq gov't, and the whole palistinian and isreali conflict or whatever you want to call it.

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:22
Ok my lack of observation then. Yellow huh. Does that mean the threat is low now? Or does it mean that the powers that be do not need to mess with our heads as much as they recently used to?
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:31

Originally posted by strategos

You better hope democracy can work there, because I do not believe it can work for Turkey then

What won't work for Turkey then? More info please!

Back to Top
strategos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2005
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1096
  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:46
Democracy, the government is already run mostly by military figures, but if they can fix that and keep the separation of church and state, then they are fine. But if they cannot keep the separation of church n state, it will fall apart. Similar to Iraq, if they can keep the seperation of religion from government, then democracy has a better chance to work.
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 19:54

Ok my lack of observation then. Yellow huh. Does that mean the threat is low now? Or does it mean that the powers that be do not need to mess with our heads as much as they recently used to?

Not sure what it means exactly, it usually says Terror Alert:Yellow/Elevated. Its always on the ticker at the bottom.

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:07

Originally posted by strategos

Democracy, the government is already run mostly by military figures, but if they can fix that and keep the separation of church and state, then they are fine. But if they cannot keep the separation of church n state, it will fall apart. Similar to Iraq, if they can keep the seperation of religion from government, then democracy has a better chance to work.

As you may know, Turkey has had a multi party system in its elections since the 1950's. Before it was primarily Ataturk's majority party that ran the government. Military figures are not in the political parties. They are part of the national security council of Turkey. The prime minister and president of the republic also have rights to participate in the NSC. There always has been a seperation of church and state since the republic's inception. However, various religiously dominant parties have also been elected into coalitions that govern the country. They are all subject to the constitution, none-the-less.

Iraq's forced democracy is a work in progress. Unlike Turkey, Iraq's premature democratic movement was intitiated by foreigners and not its own citizens. Therefore, a revolution did not create a democratic movement. Hence one reason for the turmoil in Iraq.



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 20:49
I agree with Seko, as we have already seen the US has shot itself in the foot by establishing democracy anyway, as the Iraqis voted for some crazy Shia nutjob party that will turn it into mini-iran in all liklihood.  Say what you will about Saddam, but he kept that area under control at least.  Neither the US nor its puppet government seems to be able to do that.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: ArizonaUSA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3959
  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 02:27
The whole region is exploding right now anyway. It seems that you have fallen for the myths from the Bush propaganda machine. I read a bumper sticker the other day, it said "Bush lied, Soldiers died."

I do not think Kerry would have not any better. If fact, he wanted to send more troops into Iraq. I do not think they are not calling the shots but they are influenced by the Corp elite. I do not trust any of them.

I like Bush over the moral issues such as gay marriage, gun rights and building a strong military but I would have prefered Buchanan as President, he was against the Iraq war. Buchanan would have done something about our borders to the south.
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 02:29
Buchanan also said Hitler was "misunderstood"
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 04:09

Originally posted by strategos

Democracy, the government is already run mostly by military figures, but if they can fix that and keep the separation of church and state, then they are fine. But if they cannot keep the separation of church n state, it will fall apart. Similar to Iraq, if they can keep the seperation of religion from government, then democracy has a better chance to work.

Turkey's religious works are all apart from politics and government. The religious works are all handled by "Diyanet leri Bakanl" and all people are free with their religious beliefs like most of current democrasies.

You are partly right that military has some effect on government, but this is a traditional Turkish system of thousands of years. At least some archibishop isnt leading us.

Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 10:02
we agree here, Turkeys secular system is supported by the army, so the army may have alot of power but its doing its job.  Theres a reason Turkey is more succesful than any of its neighbors whether Slavic European or Arab theocracy, and it has to do with secularization.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Fizzil View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Nov-2004
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 197
  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 11:45

You meant Arab Monarchy?

none of the arab countries are theocracies.

Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:30
not officially, but in how they figire many of their laws, how they culturally percieve things, how thier people are raised, like the US it is pretty much an unoficcial theocracy.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.