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A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia
    Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 19:40
Originally posted by mojobadshah


Originally posted by toyomotor

mojobadshah: How do you mean PIE myth?

Are you suggesting that the accepted thoughts on the Proto Indo European language formation are erroneous? Could you elaborate please?
I think there's a break down of communication here.  I didn't say anything about PIE myth.  I don't believe PIE is erroneous.  There's nothing wrong with PIE.  I'm merely suggested as it has been suggested to me that not all Norse myth is from PIE.  Some of it is Zoroastrian.  How?  Probably because of the Sarmations Irano-Afghans because they were Zoroastrian and there are several accounts of Scythians in Europe. 


Sorry, I thought I saw in one of your posts the words "PIE Myth".

There are accounts of the Scythians in Europe, that's for sure. I've suggested elsewhere that the pale Caucasian features found in some Eastern European countries could have originated with the Cumans, who were fair complection, fair or red hair and had blue or green eyes. I don't know if that is the explanation, but I'm putting it forward for debate. Cheers.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 10:20
Originally posted by toyomotor

mojobadshah: How do you mean PIE myth?

Are you suggesting that the accepted thoughts on the Proto Indo European language formation are erroneous? Could you elaborate please?


I think there's a break down of communication here.  I didn't say anything about PIE myth.  I don't believe PIE is erroneous.  There's nothing wrong with PIE.  I'm merely suggested as it has been suggested to me that not all Norse myth is from PIE.  Some of it is Zoroastrian.  How?  Probably because of the Sarmations Irano-Afghans because they were Zoroastrian and there are several accounts of Scythians in Europe. 

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 01:40
mojobadshah: How do you mean PIE myth?

Are you suggesting that the accepted thoughts on the Proto Indo European language formation are erroneous? Could you elaborate please?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 00:50
mojobadshah, it really seems that most of our history is shrouded in a lot of "Mystery!" But, real and famous historians follow just the same approach because "It is!"

Ron
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 02:57
Are we questioning the location of Aryana or that Iranian migrations were made to Scandinavia?  Witzel's article on the homeland of the Aryans which is online appeared to be quite systematic to me.  And I find it very hard to believe that all the Avestan place-names which correspond to present day Irano-Afghan place names and the places themselves would have moved.  This is linguistic.  History however is not scientific.  See wikipedias page on the Scythians to see all the people who have notions of a Scythian past.  Joseph Campbell supports the Zoroastrian influence on Nordic myth theory.  That's comparative mythology.  That's sort of science too.    
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 02:20
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Michael Witzel has done a careful study on the lands mentioned in the Avesta and most of them including Aryana has been located mostly in Afghanistan, but also in other -stans and Iran.  The Sarmatians were known as the Sarmayan in the Avesta and were some of the first converts to Zoroastrianism.  The Sarmatians must have made their way to Scandinavia at some point along with other waves of Scythians to Europe e.g. Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany because their is evidence of Zoroastrian influence in both the Nart Sagas of the Ossettes and Nordic mythology.  Consequently, the characters and stories in the Nart Sagas have been compared to Nordic mythology (as well as Greek myth).  I, personally, would conclude that from Aryana, ancient Irano-Afghanistan, there were Irano-Afghan (mainly Eastern Irano-Afghan) migrations into Europe.  


I can't agree with you to that extent. There were movements from the Pontic Steppes to Central and Western Europe, and vice versa, there is no doubt about that. I haven't read anywhere about the Scythians being in Scandinavia. Could you please provide a scientifically based reference which substantiates your post?

I've had a look at Michael Witzels Cv and I question his level of expertise in Eastern European Anthropology, especially people movements. His writings have not received universal acceptance.

Edited by toyomotor - 25-Jan-2014 at 02:32
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2014 at 20:17
Perhaps you can look at this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2014 at 09:07
Michael Witzel has done a careful study on the lands mentioned in the Avesta and most of them including Aryana has been located mostly in Afghanistan, but also in other -stans and Iran.  The Sarmatians were known as the Sarmayan in the Avesta and were some of the first converts to Zoroastrianism.  The Sarmatians must have made their way to Scandinavia at some point along with other waves of Scythians to Europe e.g. Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany because their is evidence of Zoroastrian influence in both the Nart Sagas of the Ossettes and Nordic mythology.  Consequently, the characters and stories in the Nart Sagas have been compared to Nordic mythology (as well as Greek myth).  I, personally, would conclude that from Aryana, ancient Irano-Afghanistan, there were Irano-Afghan (mainly Eastern Irano-Afghan) migrations into Europe.  
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 23:56
There is almost no mention of Iranian-speaking people before the 8th century BC, it is really possible that these people migrated from somewhere like Scandinavia in this period, and I think the climate change could be the main reason for this migration from the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej) to Eastern Europe and Central Asia and finally modern Iran. We can read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text:

A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia

The PIE languages were still developing in the 8th Century BCE, so I would suggest that it is possible that the fact that there is no mention of Iranian speaking people could be attributed to this. I haven't read anything that suggests that Scandinavians migrated to the Iranian area, much more likely that they migrated northwards from Turkey, with a possible admixture from north western Asia.


Edited by toyomotor - 23-Jan-2014 at 23:56
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 18:39
Can any of you think that this is due to the number of Scandinavians that were in the Varangian Guard?

Of course at one time there were the Heruls!

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 23-Jan-2014 at 19:13
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 15:27
If anything, the Northern European migration was towards the Central Asia/Afghanistan/Pakistan region. You find a considerable amount of Northern European DNA there. Iran actually lacks it
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 08:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Let's first read about something in Norse mythology: Fimbulvetr
 

In Norse mythology, Fimbulvetr (or fimbulvinter) is the immediate prelude to the events of Ragnarök. Fimbulvetr is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and brothers will kill brothers.

The prefix 'fimbul' means "the great/big" so the correct interpretation of the word is "the great winter".[1]

There have been several popular speculations about whether this particular piece of mythology has a connection to the climate change that occurred in the Nordic countries at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, about 650 BC. Before this climate change, the Nordic countries were considerably warmer.[2]

In Denmark, Norway, Sweden and other Nordic countries, the term fimbulvinter is also used to refer to an unusually cold and harsh winter.[1]

About "the great winter", it is good to read from a good book:
 
The Oxford introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European world By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams (2006 - 731 pages)
 
 
page 440:
 
We can read more about it in another book:
 
Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams
 
 
page 180:

 
There is almost no mention of Iranian-speaking people before the 8th century BC, it is really possible that these people migrated from somewhere like Scandinavia in this period, and I think the climate change could be the main reason for this migration from the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej) to Eastern Europe and Central Asia and finally modern Iran. We can read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text:
 
 
2.4 The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja5, by the Vanguhi Daitya6.

Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river7 and Winter, a work of the Daevas8.

3. There are ten winter months there, two summer months9; and those are cold for the waters10, cold for the earth, cold for the trees11. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]

How does the PIE myth outline compare to the Iranian myth?  Is Loki Azi Dahak or Jamsheed?  Is the nephew or grandson Feridun?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 20:08
hey, are u from Iran? i need some help with finding Georgians in Iran. can u give me any ideas?
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 16:33
Happy Yalda!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 13:17
This is the night, Happy Yalda! Smile
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 12:29
Today I searched the word "Yule" in Google News: http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&um=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Yule and found it:
 
 
 
Question
 
 
Germanic pagan origins

The Yule log has frequently been associated with having its origins in the historical Germanic paganism which was practiced across northern Europe prior to Christianisation.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Dec-2009 at 12:44
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 02:22

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Interesting theory Cyrus, but its pretty well established that the Indo-Europeans originated somewhere north/north west of the black sea and that Iranian peoples migrated to the Near East from Central Asia.

The origin of Indo-European peoples or the path of Iranian migration are not the things that I talk here, if you have enough time please read my thousand posts in this thread: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
If you know Persian language then you certainly know that the very Persian word for God is Goda/Khoda, however we also used Baga, like Slavic Bog, there is a long distance between Scandinavia and Iran, so Iranian culture certainly mixed with some other Indo-European and even non-Indo-European cultures to reach Iranian plateau, so it is very difficult to find the original Iranian words, but I believe the oldest ones are the words which are similar to Germanic words.

For example what is the Persian word for "whether"? Khwatha, Modern Persian Khvah (خواه), yes?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=whether&searchmode=none

whether Look up whether at Dictionary.com
O.E. hwæðer, hweðer "which of two, whether," from P.Gmc. *khwatharaz (cf. O.S. hwedar, O.N. hvarr, Goth. huaþar, O.H.G. hwedar "which of the two," Ger. weder "neither"), from interrogative base *khwa- "who" (see who)

and about Who: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=who

who Look up who at Dictionary.com
O.E. hwa, from P.Gmc. *khwas, *khwes, *khwo (cf. O.S. hwe, Dan. hvo, Swed. vem, O.Fris. hwa, Du. wie, O.H.G. hwer, Ger. wer, Goth. hvo (fem.) "who"), from PIE *qwos/*qwes (cf. Skt. kah "who, which," Avestan ko, Hittite kuish "who," L. qui, quae, quod "who, which, what," Lith. kas "who," O.C.S. kuto, Rus. kto "who," O.Ir. ce, Welsh pwy "who").

The Persian word for "Who" is "Ki/Ke", similar to Avestan "Ko", so what is the origin of the very modern Persian word "Khvah"? Did this word and hundreds other ones relate to Proto-Germanic language which became extinct some thousands years ago?

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 01:39

Originally posted by opuslola

I would suggest the mention of the pomegranate was a good one, as was the mention of the water-melon. Both of these items would be considered bountiful since they both contain so many seeds. It is highly likely that the cherry is also a feminine sign of good or fruitfulness.

That is really a very good point, pomegranate can be considered as a symbol of union, on this night all members of a family gather together, I myself usually visit some of my distant family members just on this day in a year!

Map of Iran:

 
Have you seen the bas-reliefs of the ancient Persian kings at Persepolis? What is the flower in their hand?
 
 
 
Do you know this flower? This is certainly pomegranate flower.
 
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Dec-2009 at 04:58
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 01:19

Originally posted by kman123

I always thought the origins of the Christmas tree were from ancient Egypt, where they'd bring in a palm tree during a seasonal solstice or something to celebrate Ra and life.

Christmas traditions could be a mixture of different cultural traditions in the vast Roman empire, that is not the same as Yuletide/Yalda, however that Germanic pagan religious festival has had certainly a strong influence on it.

Originally posted by kman123

Even if it were Iranian however, I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that a migration must've occurred in order for the tradition to have been adopted by another culture.

As I said in the above post, I don't believe it was Iranian, Iranian migration doesn't relate to Christmas or Yuletide, you can read in my frist post in this thread that I said Avesta, the oldest Iranian text, obviously talks about an Iranian migration from a cold land which could be Scandinavia.

Originally posted by kman123

Additionally, even the Persian new year for example is celebrated by many people throughout the world but under different names. It's just a seasonal celebration, really. They could just be cultural reactions to things every human thinks about as a result of the climate, evolution, etc. There might not even be a connection between any of these things, there doesn't necessarily have to have been intimate cultural relationships for different peoples to share similar traditions.

It depends on the celebration and its details, you can't say Persian Noruz doesn't relate to Nevruz in Kazakhstan or Nairuzi in Eastern Africa's Zinzibar island, if there is no connection, do you know why: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27783 -> "Seven countires: Iran, India, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Pakistan and Kazakhstan worked together and finally registered Ancient Noruz (New Day in Persian) Festival on UNESCO’s List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity."

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2009 at 22:34
I didn't say that Christmas or Yule has an Iranian origin, but as I said and you can read in that Wiki article, it was originally an ancient Germanic pagan religious festival, but it is also very possible that Iranian Yalda festival has also the same origin, the one intersting thing is that the word Yule (Jul) has probably a non-Indo-European origin, I read in a book that it comes from Finn. Juliha -> http://www.fincd.com/finnish/juhlia.html which means "Feast, Celebrate"!
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