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A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia
    Posted: 12-Dec-2009 at 10:51
Let's first read about something in Norse mythology: Fimbulvetr
 

In Norse mythology, Fimbulvetr (or fimbulvinter) is the immediate prelude to the events of Ragnarök. Fimbulvetr is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and brothers will kill brothers.

The prefix 'fimbul' means "the great/big" so the correct interpretation of the word is "the great winter".[1]

There have been several popular speculations about whether this particular piece of mythology has a connection to the climate change that occurred in the Nordic countries at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, about 650 BC. Before this climate change, the Nordic countries were considerably warmer.[2]

In Denmark, Norway, Sweden and other Nordic countries, the term fimbulvinter is also used to refer to an unusually cold and harsh winter.[1]

About "the great winter", it is good to read from a good book:
 
The Oxford introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European world By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams (2006 - 731 pages)
 
 
page 440:
 
We can read more about it in another book:
 
Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams
 
 
page 180:

 
There is almost no mention of Iranian-speaking people before the 8th century BC, it is really possible that these people migrated from somewhere like Scandinavia in this period, and I think the climate change could be the main reason for this migration from the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej) to Eastern Europe and Central Asia and finally modern Iran. We can read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text:
 
 
2.4 The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja5, by the Vanguhi Daitya6.

Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river7 and Winter, a work of the Daevas8.

3. There are ten winter months there, two summer months9; and those are cold for the waters10, cold for the earth, cold for the trees11. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Dec-2009 at 10:55
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2009 at 17:07
http://azerbaijan24.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/255-thor-heyerdahl-vikings-and-azerbaijan.html

Just thought I'd throw in Thor's ideas!






Edited by opuslola - 12-Dec-2009 at 17:10
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2009 at 08:57

It is usually believed that the oldest cultures were formed in the west Asia, especially in Mesopotamia, and peoples migrated from this region to another parts of the world, but the fact is that this region attracted different peoples with different cultures when the first civilization was born there.

Iranian people orginally lived somewhere that the sun and its heat were very important for them, so one of the most important Iranian festivals, one of two ancient festivals which is still celebrated by Iranians, is Yalda (another one is Noruz, the Persian new year), because Iranian believed at this night, the longest night of the year, the sun is reborn, so they don't sleep until dawn to see the sun and celebrate!
 
You can read here about Yalda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalda
 
Yaldā (Persian: یلدا) or Shab-e Chelleh (Persian: شب چله) is an Iranian festival originally celebrated on the Northern Hemisphere's longest night of the year, that is, on the eve of the Winter Solstice.
 
But what does this word which has been mentioned in the oldest Persian texts, mean?
 
You should read about Yuletide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
 
Yule-tide is a winter festival that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic peoples as a pagan religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas. The festival was originally celebrated from late December to early January on a date determined by the lunar Germanic calendar. The festival was placed on December 25 when the Christian (Julian) calendar was adopted.
 
As you read in this article, Yuletide is celebrated in these countries:
 
Denmark (Jul)
England (Yuletide)
Finland (Joulu)
Iceland (Jól)
Norway (Jul)
Sweden (Jul)
Shetland Islands of Scotland (Yules)
Estonia (Jõulud)
Iran (Yalda)
It could be an important festival for peoples who lived in the northern Europe but why Iran which has mostly hot and dry climate?! Question
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2009 at 17:17
A great post Cyrus! I think the possibility of your suggested assocition is correct!

Barbara G. Walker, who has published a number of books related to "Women", has this to say; "..Candles were formerly honored as a symbol of Juno Lucina, Mother of the Light, who governed the sun, moon, and stars, and also gave newborn creatures the 'light' of their vision. Her festival of lights at the winter soltice became the Christian feast of 'Saint Lucy,' still celebrated in Sweden with a Lussibruden or Lucy Bride, that is, a maiden wearing a crown of candles."

She also mentions a connection with the Roman New year; "The Roman New Year used to occur in the ides of March, during a season that later entered Christian tradition as the pre-lent Carnival. Others, however, celebrated the turning of the year around the winter soltice (the Northern Yule)."

She also mentions the Boar; "He was sacrificed with the Yule pig with an apple in his mouth,.." She also says "the Christmas tree dated back to Yule celebrations.." IE, the Yule Tree.

All of the above can be found in; "The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols & Sacred Objects", by Barbara G. Walker ISBN 0-06-250992-5

I might even suggest that Jesus might well have been hung upon an evergreen tree because they were considered as everlasting!

As your post certainly seemed to indicate, one might even consider the relationship of "yule" to "Jule", or "Iule", etc.?, because considering the time period problem, the "ides of March", are certainly related to the time of Julius / Iulius Caesar!

Last edit, added this; please see this very site for more interesting information; http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27282

IE, "God - Yul" Most of us have read about the number of connections that can be made with the life of Julius (Jul?) Caesar and Jesus Christ!

Regards,
Ron

I ususally hate to edit posts, except to correct my mostly terrible spelling, but here it seems more opportune!

Please examine; http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS315US315&q=the+roman+new+year

I tried to make these associations less obvious in this series but it seems that no one either caught my point, or they thought it not relevant!

But, I was attempting to associated the ancient New Years celebration in Rome (IE March) and in other places (and times?) it seems to have been associated with Dec. 25, etc.!

The point I was attempting to make in a rather obtuse manner, is that it seems to me clear that it was only the later "calender / kalend" changes that made this three month difference!

It was thus "fortutious" to sail upon a full moon and tide, if one was to become an invader! It was also "fortutious" to approach Caesar at this very same time especially if one was "especially", maybe a "Greek bearing gifts!, Beware!"

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 21-Dec-2009 at 18:04
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2009 at 08:25
Cyrus, I don't know why one cannot even go further? Why don't we consider the very words "Yule-tide", "Christmas-tide?", etc.? Tide can mean in its greatest sense, the rising and falling of ocean waters, etc., but it can also mean a "fortuitous time!" The highest "high-tide" occurs when the Moon and the Sun are in conjunction, that is both gravitational forces are on the same side of the heavens, and the Moon is thus not visible!

Assuming the "bearer of gifts, or good tidings, etc.", was expected to arrive upon a large high tide, then it would be a "fortutious event!"

Now, going back to the origin of the New Year, and Yule-time/tide, we again, it seems, if we consider the original date was in March, that the famous connection of Julius / Iulius Caesar/Tsar, etc., was propheced to occur during "the Ides of March!", as mentioned above!

We may just have to consider that "Ides", is but a variation of "Tides?" Of course we have to consider that a "Lunar calendar" would be followed! IE, "Beware the Tides of March!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month

March itself, is supposedly the month dedicated to the God of War, called variously Mars! It would make sense for an invading army/navy to hope for the help of a good tide when making invasion plans or when the night sky was dark! It would also be a good opportunity for a revolution or murder to occur! Darkness hides the perpertrators!

Not to mention that most of the population whould have either been drunk or passed out, or celebrating a feast, etc.

Thus it was "fortuitous!"

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 14-Dec-2009 at 08:36
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2009 at 09:36
Good posts Opuslola, it seems you are really interested in Christmas traditions, one interesting thing for me is the importance of the red color on this day, why Santa Claus wears red? It is said "A tree decorated with red apples symbolized the tree of Paradise", was it the reason?
 
 
 
The sun being red, most of the fruits served during the Yalda Night must be of this coloration, hence watermelon and pomegranate, two of the red fruits found in the markets at this time of the year.

"At dawn and on sun set, where and when night and day, light and darkness meet, the colour of sky is red", goes an Iranian proverb, explaining why the colour red dominates the festivities, that also marks the last day of autumn and the beginning of winter season.

God Sun being in the form of a circle, hence the bridals ring. Being red, hence the colour of both Father Christmas, and the Popes robe, according to the tales.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Dec-2009 at 09:39
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2009 at 12:50
You folks have a good thing going here.  I'll add my 2 cents.
 

There are two accepted beliefs about the origin of traditional Christmas colours, one based on Christian faith, and the other based on historical fact.

Christian Belief

The color green is a natural representation of eternal life, specifically the evergreen tree and how it survives through the winter season. That’s why, in Christian belief, green represents the eternal life of Jesus Christ. The color red symbolizes Christ’s blood which was shed during his crucifixion.

Historical Fact

Back in the 14th Century, churches presented Miracle Plays—religious plays used to educate the illiterate public. Traditionally on December 24, the church presented The Paradise Play, the story of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. And in place of an apple tree—as they weren’t available in winter—they fastened apples to the branches of a pine tree. Using a pine to represent the Tree of Good and Evil became a common practice among churches and they began incorporating the tree into their Christmas displays each year. But it didn’t stop there. Following the church’s example, people began assembling pine trees in their homes and decorating them with red apples. This act introduced two modern traditions: the Christmas tree and our seasonal colors, green for the pine tree and red for the apples.



Read more at Suite101: The Origin of Christmas Colors: How Green and Red Became Symbols of Christmas | Suite101.com http://cultural-anthropology.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_origin_of_christmas_colors#ixzz0ZhMDXAcN




Edited by red clay - 14-Dec-2009 at 12:51
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2009 at 04:10
red clay, that is a very young story for the Christmas tree, if we believe an Iranian migration from Scandinavia and also existence of a strong connection between ancient Yalda and Yultide festivals then there should be some signs of them in the ancient Iranian architecture, please look at my signature, what do you see there?
 
 
What is this? Just a tree? A good picture of another one from www.Persepolis3D.com:
 
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  Quote kman123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2009 at 10:55
I always thought the origins of the Christmas tree were from ancient Egypt, where they'd bring in a palm tree during a seasonal solstice or something to celebrate Ra and life.

Even if it were Iranian however, I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that a migration must've occurred in order for the tradition to have been adopted by another culture. 

Additionally, even the Persian new year for example is celebrated by many people throughout the world but under different names. It's just a seasonal celebration, really. They could just be cultural reactions to things every human thinks about as a result of the climate, evolution, etc. There might not even be a connection between any of these things, there doesn't necessarily have to have been intimate cultural relationships for different peoples to share similar traditions.


Edited by kman123 - 15-Dec-2009 at 11:02
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2009 at 11:11
Cyrus and RedClay, good posts.

I would suggest the mention of the pomegranate was a good one, as was the mention of the water-melon. Both of these items would be considered bountiful since they both contain so many seeds. It is highly likely that the cherry is also a feminine sign of good or fruitfulness.

I would refer both of you again to the works of Barbara G. Walker, where she says; "The name of the pomegranated means 'apple of many seeds, " but its Biblical name was rimmon, from rim, to bare a child.' The fruit was almost universally known as a womb symbol, with its red juice and numerous 'offspring.' Pomegranates were carved in the pillars of Soloman's temple to represent fertility (1 Kings 7:18-20). Soloman himself impersonated Baal-Rimmon, the Lord of the Pomegranate, when he mated with his holy bride and drank the juice of her pomergranate (Song of Solomon 8:2).
In Europe, the pomegranate was always an attribute to the Queen of Heaven, Hero or Juno....." She goes on to state; "The word garnet comes from granatum, the pomegranate, a traditional symbol of the womb and life giving uterine blood....."
Hope this helps?

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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2009 at 14:03
Interesting theory Cyrus, but its pretty well established that the Indo-Europeans originated somewhere north/north west of the black sea and that Iranian peoples migrated to the Near East from Central Asia.

If you want to go even further back, we all came from Africa. Its all relative to which period in history you are looking for. Did an Iranian people even exist that long ago? At what point can we separate Iranians from other Indo-European peoples? I think that Iranian's became Iranians once settling in Central Asia, our origins before that are really irrelevant.

I did not read through these posts thoroughly, but you seem to be making connections regarding common traits between Indo-European cultures. Well, we are all classed together because of these cultural similarities in the first place...

Also, regarding the Christmas tree, I do not know of its ancient origins (or even if it has one), all I know is that it was a German tradition which was adopted by other Western nations after WWI.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2009 at 22:34
I didn't say that Christmas or Yule has an Iranian origin, but as I said and you can read in that Wiki article, it was originally an ancient Germanic pagan religious festival, but it is also very possible that Iranian Yalda festival has also the same origin, the one intersting thing is that the word Yule (Jul) has probably a non-Indo-European origin, I read in a book that it comes from Finn. Juliha -> http://www.fincd.com/finnish/juhlia.html which means "Feast, Celebrate"!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 01:19

Originally posted by kman123

I always thought the origins of the Christmas tree were from ancient Egypt, where they'd bring in a palm tree during a seasonal solstice or something to celebrate Ra and life.

Christmas traditions could be a mixture of different cultural traditions in the vast Roman empire, that is not the same as Yuletide/Yalda, however that Germanic pagan religious festival has had certainly a strong influence on it.

Originally posted by kman123

Even if it were Iranian however, I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that a migration must've occurred in order for the tradition to have been adopted by another culture.

As I said in the above post, I don't believe it was Iranian, Iranian migration doesn't relate to Christmas or Yuletide, you can read in my frist post in this thread that I said Avesta, the oldest Iranian text, obviously talks about an Iranian migration from a cold land which could be Scandinavia.

Originally posted by kman123

Additionally, even the Persian new year for example is celebrated by many people throughout the world but under different names. It's just a seasonal celebration, really. They could just be cultural reactions to things every human thinks about as a result of the climate, evolution, etc. There might not even be a connection between any of these things, there doesn't necessarily have to have been intimate cultural relationships for different peoples to share similar traditions.

It depends on the celebration and its details, you can't say Persian Noruz doesn't relate to Nevruz in Kazakhstan or Nairuzi in Eastern Africa's Zinzibar island, if there is no connection, do you know why: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27783 -> "Seven countires: Iran, India, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Pakistan and Kazakhstan worked together and finally registered Ancient Noruz (New Day in Persian) Festival on UNESCO’s List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity."

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 01:39

Originally posted by opuslola

I would suggest the mention of the pomegranate was a good one, as was the mention of the water-melon. Both of these items would be considered bountiful since they both contain so many seeds. It is highly likely that the cherry is also a feminine sign of good or fruitfulness.

That is really a very good point, pomegranate can be considered as a symbol of union, on this night all members of a family gather together, I myself usually visit some of my distant family members just on this day in a year!

Map of Iran:

 
Have you seen the bas-reliefs of the ancient Persian kings at Persepolis? What is the flower in their hand?
 
 
 
Do you know this flower? This is certainly pomegranate flower.
 
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Dec-2009 at 04:58
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 02:22

Originally posted by TheGreatSimba

Interesting theory Cyrus, but its pretty well established that the Indo-Europeans originated somewhere north/north west of the black sea and that Iranian peoples migrated to the Near East from Central Asia.

The origin of Indo-European peoples or the path of Iranian migration are not the things that I talk here, if you have enough time please read my thousand posts in this thread: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
If you know Persian language then you certainly know that the very Persian word for God is Goda/Khoda, however we also used Baga, like Slavic Bog, there is a long distance between Scandinavia and Iran, so Iranian culture certainly mixed with some other Indo-European and even non-Indo-European cultures to reach Iranian plateau, so it is very difficult to find the original Iranian words, but I believe the oldest ones are the words which are similar to Germanic words.

For example what is the Persian word for "whether"? Khwatha, Modern Persian Khvah (خواه), yes?

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=whether&searchmode=none

whether Look up whether at Dictionary.com
O.E. hwæðer, hweðer "which of two, whether," from P.Gmc. *khwatharaz (cf. O.S. hwedar, O.N. hvarr, Goth. huaþar, O.H.G. hwedar "which of the two," Ger. weder "neither"), from interrogative base *khwa- "who" (see who)

and about Who: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=who

who Look up who at Dictionary.com
O.E. hwa, from P.Gmc. *khwas, *khwes, *khwo (cf. O.S. hwe, Dan. hvo, Swed. vem, O.Fris. hwa, Du. wie, O.H.G. hwer, Ger. wer, Goth. hvo (fem.) "who"), from PIE *qwos/*qwes (cf. Skt. kah "who, which," Avestan ko, Hittite kuish "who," L. qui, quae, quod "who, which, what," Lith. kas "who," O.C.S. kuto, Rus. kto "who," O.Ir. ce, Welsh pwy "who").

The Persian word for "Who" is "Ki/Ke", similar to Avestan "Ko", so what is the origin of the very modern Persian word "Khvah"? Did this word and hundreds other ones relate to Proto-Germanic language which became extinct some thousands years ago?

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2009 at 12:29
Today I searched the word "Yule" in Google News: http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&um=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Yule and found it:
 
 
 
Question
 
 
Germanic pagan origins

The Yule log has frequently been associated with having its origins in the historical Germanic paganism which was practiced across northern Europe prior to Christianisation.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Dec-2009 at 12:44
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 13:17
This is the night, Happy Yalda! Smile
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  Quote TheGreatSimba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 16:33
Happy Yalda!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2010 at 20:08
hey, are u from Iran? i need some help with finding Georgians in Iran. can u give me any ideas?
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 08:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Let's first read about something in Norse mythology: Fimbulvetr
 

In Norse mythology, Fimbulvetr (or fimbulvinter) is the immediate prelude to the events of Ragnarök. Fimbulvetr is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and brothers will kill brothers.

The prefix 'fimbul' means "the great/big" so the correct interpretation of the word is "the great winter".[1]

There have been several popular speculations about whether this particular piece of mythology has a connection to the climate change that occurred in the Nordic countries at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, about 650 BC. Before this climate change, the Nordic countries were considerably warmer.[2]

In Denmark, Norway, Sweden and other Nordic countries, the term fimbulvinter is also used to refer to an unusually cold and harsh winter.[1]

About "the great winter", it is good to read from a good book:
 
The Oxford introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European world By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams (2006 - 731 pages)
 
 
page 440:
 
We can read more about it in another book:
 
Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams
 
 
page 180:

 
There is almost no mention of Iranian-speaking people before the 8th century BC, it is really possible that these people migrated from somewhere like Scandinavia in this period, and I think the climate change could be the main reason for this migration from the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej) to Eastern Europe and Central Asia and finally modern Iran. We can read in Avesta, the oldest Iranian text:
 
 
2.4 The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja5, by the Vanguhi Daitya6.

Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river7 and Winter, a work of the Daevas8.

3. There are ten winter months there, two summer months9; and those are cold for the waters10, cold for the earth, cold for the trees11. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]

How does the PIE myth outline compare to the Iranian myth?  Is Loki Azi Dahak or Jamsheed?  Is the nephew or grandson Feridun?

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