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Topic: Are Kurds Descended From the Medes? Posted: 15-Jan-2010 at 16:00
Most every post here is bathed in "hatred!" It seems almost every ethnic group in most of the world is brought up to "hate" most every one who is not a part of their "little tribe" or their "little linguistic group", or their "little religious belief!"
You should all be chastised and spanked by your grand mothers! Of course they are probably the very ones who helped you learn your instincts to hate others?
But, TGS wrote;
"However, there are different Persian accents the same way there are different English accents. In the United States alone there are 4 different English accents, Australian/American/Canadian/British/South African, etc... English all are spoken in different accents.
it has to do with geography."
TGS, it seems either you were being very general of you know little of N. American language and especially accents! If you were trying to be "general" in your words, then OK! If not, you really need to speak to people in the USA that can recognize accents as I am want to do!
As anyone of English background, and who has actually travelled withing the USA, and who actually has what I call an "observant ear", can tell you is that the USA is made up of literally hundreds of accents! And, in times past, possibly thousands!
As a young boy, one (or at least I) could tell that people from 50 KM or 30 miles from my locality, spoke with differing accents! The further away from my area, the greater the accent differed from my own!
And this in in a land where radio and TV and newspapers were very common!
It is hard for me to comprehend what it could be like in areas that we, here in the USA, would consider that until the last 40 or 50 years, or so, basically lived in "third world conditions!"? That is, no radio, no electricty, no TV, and no newspapers!
Hey I am describing the conditions that existed outside of most of the capital cities of your nations, or regions, until very recently! At least on the timescale of the majority of the USA, and even W. Europe!
It seems to me, as an outsider, that most people in Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Nepal, Azerbajan, etc., actually lived in conditions more similar to those last lived by most people in the USA in the 18th century?
TGS, it seems either you were being very general of you know little of N. American language and especially accents! If you were trying to be "general" in your words, then OK! If not, you really need to speak to people in the USA that can recognize accents as I am want to do!
As anyone of English background, and who has actually travelled withing the USA, and who actually has what I call an "observant ear", can tell you is that the USA is made up of literally hundreds of accents! And, in times past, possibly thousands!
Yea, I know, I'm talking about the four main American English accents such as Midewestern, Southern, Eastern, and Western accents, of which other American accents fall under (I'm sure there are many different accents in Tennesse or Alabama but they all fall under the same general category of Southern accents).
I'm not including the thousands of different accents, such as the Iranian English accent, or Chinese English accent, or Mexican English accent, etc...
Originally posted by opuslola
As a young boy, one (or at least I) could tell that people from 50 KM or 30 miles from my locality, spoke with differing accents! The further away from my area, the greater the accent differed from my own!
And this in in a land where radio and TV and newspapers were very common!
It is hard for me to comprehend what it could be like in areas that we, here in the USA, would consider that until the last 40 or 50 years, or so, basically lived in "third world conditions!"? That is, no radio, no electricty, no TV, and no newspapers!
Hey I am describing the conditions that existed outside of most of the capital cities of your nations, or regions, until very recently! At least on the timescale of the majority of the USA, and even W. Europe!
It seems to me, as an outsider, that most people in Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Nepal, Azerbajan, etc., actually lived in conditions more similar to those last lived by most people in the USA in the 18th century?
But, perhaps I could be wrong?
Regards,
I dont know about the other countries you mentioned, but most people in Iran have access to both radio and television.
Joined: 23-Sep-2009
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Posted: 16-Jan-2010 at 19:46
TGS, you wrote;
"I dont know about the other countries you mentioned, but most people in Iran have access to both radio and television."
Yes Great Simba, I understand that today what you state is so! But, as it seems you missed, I was refering to events of 50 or more years ago!
Certainly you cannot tell me that most Iranians in 1955 CE or so, had either access to radio (unless by crystal units)or TV, or News Papers!
That was my point! It seems, relatively, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc., are in essence quite new to these "media" methods! The only people in these nations in 1955 that had access to any of the above media sources,in mass, would have had to have lived within a few miles of a capital city!
Certainly electricity, outside of capital cities, is a new comer to most all of rural areas of any of these nations! That is mostly acquired after the 1960's, and later!
Regards,
Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
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Posts: 4620
Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 17:30
And, TGS, you wrote; "Yea, I know, I'm talking about the four main American English accents such as Midewestern, Southern, Eastern, and Western accents, of which other American accents fall under (I'm sure there are many different accents in Tennesse or Alabama but they all fall under the same general category of Southern accents)."
Thus, I would guess that you whould consider a common accent found in New Orleans, La., whould be "southern?" But, you would be far from the truth! The accent that is found most commonly amongst the White population in the areas of New Orleans and vicinity, that were flooded whtn the levies failed, can only be compared to the same accent that still exists in parts of New York, NY!
I.e., dis, dem, da and dos! I.e. a typical Irish accent from Brooklyn, NY, NY!
I know, that you do not know! Some, so called Southern accents are derived from the English spoken in parts of GB, during the migration to the USA (American Colonies) and others are merely a figment of Yankee imagination, as well as those "carpetbaggers" who came South to steal a lot of the wealth of the loosing Southern familes, and then try to adopt a Southern accent, after only becoming Southern after 1866 or so!
about the origin of kurds. well i am from kurdish population of kermanshah with some old paternal roots from shiraz. i made a haplogroup test and i was surprised of the result (haplogroup T). i wonder how many ancient people has mixed to result actuall iranians or kurds.? which origin haplogroup T presents?i know many people in iran have beside R1a other haplogroupslike j and C , but it seems a few % does have T among kurd and lors this group is find in highest % in kermanshah and isfahan and shiraz. i guess it belongs to an ancient civilization which mixed with aryans, but don't know which one?
If one considers that the Medeans, the supposedly widely-supposed ancestor of the Kurds, were only really in power from the sack of Nainawa (Nineveh) by Madya (Madius) in 612 BC to the defeat of Hastayaga (Astyages) by his half-Persian grandson Khouroush (Cyrus) in 549 BC, i.e. a period of merely 63 years, it sometimes makes one wonder if the Medeans were really a distinct, separate ancient Iranian tribe, or simply an elite, aristocratic offshoot subtribe of Scythians or Cymmerians.
For, other than: (1) the Greek myth of Princess Medea, daughter of King Aeetes of Colchia, in the Greek legend, Jason and the Argonauts; and (2) the biblical legend, believed by Josephus, atrributing the Medeans as descendants of Madayu (Madai), son of Yafeth (Japhet); there is no solid historical Indo-European derived etymology for the name Mada/Madayu (Medes).
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 06-Apr-2010 at 18:03
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
If one considers that the Medeans, the supposedly widely-supposed ancestor of the Kurds, were only really in power from the sack of Nainawa (Nineveh) by Madya (Madius) in 612 BC to the defeat of Hastayaga (Astyages) by his half-Persian grandson Khouroush (Cyrus) in 549 BC, i.e. a period of merely 63 years, it sometimes makes one wonder if the Medeans were really a distinct, separate ancient Iranian tribe, or simply an elite, aristocratic offshoot subtribe of Scythians or Cymmerians.
For, other than: (1) the Greek myth of Princess Medea, daughter of King Aeetes of Colchia, in the Greek legend, Jason and the Argonauts; and (2) the biblical legend, believed by Josephus, atrributing the Medeans as descendants of Madayu (Madai), son of Yafeth (Japhet); there is no solid historical Indo-European derived etymology for the name Mada/Madayu (Medes).
I believe linguastically Kurds are descendeds of the Medes. The strong similarties Kurds share with Persians and other iranians like Balouchi with Culture and langauge points to a Iranian Origin. Genetically it could be a bit different as the region has been under different rulers and genetics can change a bit with mixing.
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A LOST city described by the Greek historian Herodotus has been
identified by a British archaeologist in central Turkey.
Geoffrey
Summers has identified the vast mountain site as Pteria, the western
capital of the Medes. The discovery may finally end the debate among
scholars about the veracity of Herodotus’ account.
Dr Summers’s work has provided the first concrete evidence of the
long-forgotten Medean empire. Using the latest archaeological surveying
techniques and computer graphics Dr Summers and his team have begun to
reconstruct a “virtual reality” model of the ancient city which,
according to Herodotus, was looted and burnt to the ground by the army
of the Lydian King Croesus.
In 1975, Dr Summers, 52, became fascinated by the fortified iron age
city on the side of a granite mountain called Kerkenes Dag. The 2.5 sq
km site is still surrounded by a 7km defensive wall with seven gates
that can be seen from space.
Beneath a 2,600-year-old shroud of soil everything is exactly as it
was left when the inhabitants of Pteria were reputedly marched off into
slavery. Because of the size of the site, conventional archaeological
techniques could provide only limited information about the development
of the city which, in its heyday in the fifth century BC, was home to
10,000 to 20,000 people.
Dr Summers and his wife Françoise have spent the past ten years
surveying the site using everything from aerial photography from a hot
air balloon to ground-penetrating radar and GPS to map the ancient
structures to an accuracy of 10cm. It is the first time such a large
archaeological site in Turkey has been mapped in such detail.
It was evidence of a great fire that convinced Mr Summers that he had
found Pteria, the western capital of the Medes, who emerged from
Ancient Persia in the sixth century BC to occupy what is now Eastern
Anatolia.
Although there are a few references to the Medes in later Greek and
Assyrian records, there is little contemporary evidence of their
existence, although the Kurds are widely thought to be their modern
descendants. According to Herodotus, the war between the Medes and the
Lydians culminated in the Battle of the Eclipse. As the battle raged, an
eclipse blacked out the sun and the combatants laid down their arms and
withdrew. The eclipse has allowed the battle to be dated to May 28,
585BC, when the city surveyed by Mr Summers would have been at its
height.
Within a generation Pteria had been sacked by Croesus and the site
abandoned and forgotten. Dr Summers has uncovered evidence that it was
looted and its fortifications toppled to prevent it being re-occupied.
The archaeological account ties in precisely with that of Herodotus.
Dr Summers said: “At the time we began studying the site there was a
view that Herodotus’ account was at best inaccurate or at worst made up.
There were even doubts about the Medean empire itself.
“Archaeologically, we know nothing about the Medes. This project puts
them on the map and it supports Herodotus’ accounts.”
Dr Summers, who was born in London but has taught at the Middle East
Technical University in Ankara for 18 years, said: “The size and
complexity of the city are astonishing. It was built when the Greek city
states were colonising the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, so it fills
a gap in the history of city planning.”
This week Dr Summers became the only British recipient of the
bi-annual Rolex Awards for Enterprise. He will be presented with a
cheque for $35,000 (£22,500) at a ceremony at the Royal Insitution in
London on November 6. Dr Summers will use the money to rebuild the
city’s main gates, which stand 5m high, and to excavate more of the
palace complex. Norman Hammond, The Times archaeological
correspondent, said Dr Summers’ identification of the city was important
because it would shed light on the Medeans and allow artefacts to be
dated to within ten years.
Words of the 'legend'
“Croesus,
when he had crossed (the Halys River) with his army, came into
Cappadocian territory, to what is called Pteria. Pteria is the strongest
part of all that country and lies in a line with the city of Sinope, on
the Euxine Sea. There he encamped, destroying the farms of the Syrians
and he captured the city of the Pterians and made slaves of the people,
and he captured all the neighbouring towns; moreover, he drove the
Syrians from their homes, though they had done him no manner of harm.
Cyrus,
on his side, gathered his own army, and took on, as well, all the
peoples who lived between him and Croesus (before he set out to march at
all, he sent heralds to the Ionians and tried to make them desert
Croesus. But the Ionians would not listen to him). So when Cyrus came
and encamped over against Croesus, then and there in that land of Pteria
they fought against one another with might and main.
The battle
was fierce, and many fell on both sides. At last they broke off at the
onset of night, without either having the victory, so hard did the two
armies fight.”
for the sure the median has been one of the people groups that lived in kurdestan and most important one because they left behind both a dominant language and their religion , but they can't be the only one who builds the origin of kurds, because before the median arrived there has been a lot of older civilisations living there and surely they have been absorbed and assimilated with medians.
the simmilarity between kurdish words and persian's is obvious, but they are not the same language . like danish and swedish which have a lot in common, but still are different languages,
for the sure the median has been one of the people groups that lived in kurdestan and most important one because they left behind both a dominant language and their religion , but they can't be the only one who builds the origin of kurds, because before the median arrived there has been a lot of older civilisations living there and surely they have been absorbed and assimilated with medians.
the simmilarity between kurdish words and persian's is obvious, but they are not the same language . like danish and swedish which have a lot in common, but still are different languages,
I once read somewhere(can't remember where) on a linguastic study on the Kurdish Languages Sorani and Kurmanji, where the author believed that Kurds most likely originated further south/west Iran. I am not sure how credible his assumption is. Where others believe Kurdish was influced by Persian and hence leans towards South Western Iranian language group.
Kurdish langauge has a lot of South Western Iranian elements in it and is nearly in between SW and NW. Gorani and Zazaki by linguastics is a different langauge to Kurmanji and Sorani. Kurmanji and Sorani share many similarties with Persian that Gorani and Zazaki don't For example the use of "W" for "X". I am still trying to figure out Kurdish history and the relationships between the language groups that may hold a key to the Kurdish history.
Altogether, the isoglosses show clearly that it makes sense to use the
terms “NW” and “SW” not in a black-and-white sense, but in that of a
“scale of SW- or NW-ness,” of which two or three historical phases may
be distinguished. (The scale model, in the form in which I proposed in
1998, was rightly criticized by Korn [2003] for not adequately taking
into account the historical sequence of the sound changes.) Kurdish and
Balōči, then, are “less NW” than many other WIr. languages and dialects
with respect to the oldest (pre-OIr.) stratum of isoglosses, but for the
pre-MIr. isoglosses, Kurdish is “much less NW” than Balōči and most
other WIr. idioms. For the most recent stratum of isoglosses, an
inconsistent picture emerges, showing (for the first time)
exclusively-Kd. sound changes like šm > -v/-w, besides others that
Kurdish shares with NP. against all NW (*w- > b-), or with most NW
against NP. and Balōči (*xt > t). Combining all this, one may call
Kurdish “originally more NW and quite close to Balōči, but since
pre-MIr. times inclining more towards the SW.”
What about the Medes themselves, who were their ancestors? Could the Cymmerians have been a likely candidate?
I pose that question because the Cymmerians suddenly 'dissappeared' from the scene about the same time that the Medes 'appeared'. Like, as if, the former, or at least some elements of them, decided to 'reinvent' themselves, then started wearing another 'label'.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 12-Apr-2010 at 02:46
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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