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Kemal Ataturk

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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kemal Ataturk
    Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 12:48
Why is he looked upon as a traitor among Muslims ? What exactly did he do during the "westernisation" of Turkey that upset the Muslim community ?

A.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 13:00
Originally posted by Azadi

Why is he looked upon as a traitor among Muslims ? What exactly did he do during the "westernisation" of Turkey that upset the Muslim community ?
A.


I thought he banned the burqa and call to prayer for a period of time. I can only speculate that this would make some very devout Muslims unhappy and possibly portray him as being anti-Islamic. I understand he was very secular in his views and not very religious but you probably know more than me about him. He is more revered than our George Washington.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 13:13
Ataturk also....
-Changed the Turkish Alphabet from Arabic script to western letters
-Banned the Fez and other traditional male clothing
-Changed Turkish law from being  a law code heavily influenced by Islamic religious law to a western, French Napoleonic style law code
 
Since most religious are also culturally conservative, even non religious changes like the alphabet and fez bans were going to anger religious leaders. 


Edited by Cryptic - 26-Aug-2009 at 13:17
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 14:38
Originally posted by Cryptic

Ataturk also....

-Changed the Turkish Alphabet from Arabic script to western letters

-Banned the Fez and other traditional male clothing

-Changed Turkish law from being  a law code heavily influenced by Islamic religious law to a western, French Napoleonic style law code

 

Since most religious are also culturally conservative, even non religious changes like the alphabet and fez bans were going to anger religious leaders. 


yes the fez that is correct except for the tourist -

I bought one for my friend's son
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 14:52
Thanks Kak Eaglecap and Cryptic, Ataturks military deeds and failures I know much about, but this hatred against the "westernisation" of his I could not understand since Mahmud II started it all.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 16:08
Originally posted by Azadi

Thanks Kak Eaglecap and Cryptic, Ataturks military deeds and failures I know much about, but this hatred against the "westernisation" of his I could not understand since Mahmud II started it all.
A.


He is very honored in your nation and I saw statues or portraits of him everywhere. I wonder if he is seen with the same light that many Americans see George Washington as our First President. He really is not as popular as Kemal Ataturk but I think at one time he was seen as more of a folk hero.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2009 at 23:39
Ataturk was really one of the most influential persons not only in Turkish society but also in the societies of the neighbour countries, Reza Shah copied almost his all changes, except the alphabet change, in Iran, of course I don't support all things that they did, like changing traditional male clothing, but I can't deny that they developed the society.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 03:59
Some can say that he was against Islam but i could say that the some who thinks like that only know traditional Islam. Yes there are two kinds of Islam in the Wolrd today; Traditional Islam and Islam in Quran. If you look at traditional Islam and its followres you can find so many things which are nonsense for example in traditional Islam reading  Quran in Arabic is better even if you do not understand it because of your mother tongue and also in traditional Islam there is belief that everyone can not understand Quran so we need some leaders (alim) who can understand it and tell us. Also the traditional clothing style which is out of date is not a rule of Quran.

So Atatürk was against this kind of Islam. He wanted his people to learn their religion themselves without helps of alims or mollas so he made Quran to be translated in Turkish, also he tried to remove evrything which was a result of traditional Islam. And do not forget after Muhammed (S.A.V.) Islam was a tool to assimilate other nation's cultıures like their languages so he was to make great changes to break this assimilation.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 07:36
^
Good point, there are people who think that Saudi Arab culture and Islam cannot be seperated. Saudia full veils are being presented as the only "truly Islamic" clothing in Africa. Full veils have never been part of the local Islam there.


Edited by Cryptic - 27-Aug-2009 at 07:41
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 08:01

The fact is that from the beginning days Islam was used as a tool for spreading the Arabic culture and those who stood against this process were considered as anti-Islam! As 29ekim1923 mentioned, for example reading Quran in Arabic has been always regarded as a religious act in the Islamic Societies whether Arab-speaking societies or non-Arabic.

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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 12:04
Why is he looked upon as a traitor among Muslims ? What exactly did he do during the "westernisation" of Turkey that upset the Muslim community ?


Limited Mullas power in the mosque just as religious men not the politician 
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  Quote Azadi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 12:07

Originally posted by eaglecap

He is very honored in your nation and I saw statues or portraits of him everywhere. I wonder if he is seen with the same light that many Americans see George Washington as our First President. He really is not as popular as Kemal Ataturk but I think at one time he was seen as more of a folk hero. 

 

This might surprise you, Kak Eaglecap, but he ain't honored among Kurds and we don’t have any statues and portraits of him either.

Originally posted by 29ekim1923

Some can say that he was against Islam but i could say that the some who thinks like that only know traditional Islam. Yes there are two kinds of Islam in the Wolrd today; Traditional Islam and Islam in Quran. If you look at traditional Islam and its followres you can find so many things which are nonsense for example in traditional Islam reading  Quran in Arabic is better even if you do not understand it because of your mother tongue and also in traditional Islam there is belief that everyone can not understand Quran so we need some leaders (alim) who can understand it and tell us. Also the traditional clothing style which is out of date is not a rule of Quran.

So Atatürk was against this kind of Islam. He wanted his people to learn their religion themselves without helps of alims or mollas so he made Quran to be translated in Turkish, also he tried to remove evrything which was a result of traditional Islam. And do not forget after Muhammed (S.A.V.) Islam was a tool to assimilate other nation's cultıures like their languages so he was to make great changes to break this assimilation.

Slaw Kak 29ekim1923,

I respect your opinion, but Ataturk, with Kemalist secular governments and the military, constrained and weakened Islam greatly. 97% of the Turkish population are Muslim, whereof only 20% practicing. Why?

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Shariah law with the European legal codes.

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar.

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script.

Set aside that Kemal closed all religious schools.

Set aside that Kemal banned traditional clothing.

Those actions were necessary in order to move forward…

But taking control over tens of thousands mosques, and replacing the current imams with “government friendly” imams led to the fact that mosques were to used to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were also used to spread the Kemalist ideology.

I’m not totally sure but I think the Muslims suffering the most, besides Kurds and Armenians, were the Sufi Muslims who got their monasteries confiscated and rituals outlawed.

I’ve done some research regarding Ataturks reforms since I started this thread, as you may have known, and some of the reforms Kemal put into practice during his “westernization” were deeply disturbing. Ordering Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah, and replace the name of the 5 time prayers and the call for prayers with Turkish names? What?! I understand calling Kurds “mountain Turks” (unlike sea and jungle Turks), but that fact that he DID put these reforms into practice in a country were the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims? Not the mention that he changed many mosques into museums.

Kemal was a military genius in every way, and he did as a matter of fact found the modern Turkish state – but not though peace, equality of freedom of speech like the European countries – but though suppression, massacres and massive human rights violations.

As long as Turkish military and the state bureaucracy are infiltrated with Kemalist/secularists and act as the guardians of Ataturk’s reforms and work to preserve Kemalism and weaken Islam – Turkey will be a torn country.

And for your information 29ekim1923, The Holy Quran is according to Islam the final revelation of God’s words given to humanity. Nobody prevented Turks from learning Arabic and reading the Quran, this has nothing to do with “traditional Islam”. The reason Muslims think reading the Quran in Arabic is “better” is because; that’s the original. The translated versions are imperfect; the translator could have changed or misinterpreted words, so it doesn’t give the prefect representation of the message of the Quran as no translation can accurately match the original Arabic.

A.



Edited by Azadi - 27-Aug-2009 at 12:12
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2009 at 12:15
but he ain't honored among Kurds and we don’t have any statues and portraits of him either.

Kurds are right to dislike him,
but his statue & portraits + flag is in every centimeters on the way from Iranian border to Van, obviously mainly in military & governmental org. & some hotel & shops
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2009 at 04:50
Originally posted by Azadi

I respect your opinion, but Ataturk, with Kemalist secular governments and the military, constrained and weakened Islam greatly. 97% of the Turkish population are Muslim, whereof only 20% practicing. Why?
Who said only %20 practicing? Turkey is a secular country everybody could belive whatever they want, practicing islam is not banned.
 
Originally posted by Azadi

But taking control over tens of thousands mosques, and replacing the current imams with “government friendly” imams led to the fact that mosques were to used to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were also used to spread the Kemalist ideology.

Well what were you expecting, keeping anti-regime imams while making reform.

Originally posted by Azadi

Ordering Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah, and replace the name of the 5 time prayers and the call for prayers with Turkish names?
You talk like Muslims and Turks are different nations Smile. We also made languge reform, and changed too many non-Turkish word to Turkish.

Originally posted by Azadi

What?! I understand calling Kurds “mountain Turks” (unlike sea and jungle Turks)
 
Yeap that "mountain Turks" thing is absurd, but it invented in 80's, many years after death of Atatürk.
 
Originally posted by Azadi

Not the mention that he changed many mosques into museums.
 
Well we have enought mosques in Turkey.

Originally posted by Azadi

Kemal was a military genius in every way, and he did as a matter of fact found the modern Turkish state – but not though peace, equality of freedom of speech like the European countries – but though suppression, massacres and massive human rights violations.

He did not violated human rights.

Originally posted by Azadi

As long as Turkish military and the state bureaucracy are infiltrated with Kemalist/secularists and act as the guardians of Ataturk’s reforms and work to preserve Kemalism and weaken Islam – Turkey will be a torn country.
Dont think soo. Turkey is a secular country, everybody could belive whatever they want.

Originally posted by Azadi

The reason Muslims think reading the Quran in Arabic is “better” is because; that’s the original. The translated versions are imperfect; the translator could have changed or misinterpreted words, so it doesn’t give the prefect representation of the message of the Quran as no translation can accurately match the original Arabic.
Well if you dont know Arabic, you cant understand "the message". So its better to read in your languge.

 

 

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  Quote Hypocrisy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2009 at 11:24
Originally posted by Azadi

This might surprise you, Kak Eaglecap, but he ain't honored among Kurds and we don’t have any statues and portraits of him either.


Is it because he established a "Turkish state" ?

I respect your opinion, but Ataturk, with Kemalist secular governments and the military, constrained and weakened Islam greatly. 97% of the Turkish population are Muslim, whereof only 20% practicing. Why?

Why Turkey has to stick to Islamic values? He abolished the religion-based establishments due to the regressive impact of an highly islamic tradition on the society. I myself find that choice pertinent.

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Shariah law with the European legal codes.

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar.

Set aside that Kemal replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script.

Set aside that Kemal closed all religious schools.

Set aside that Kemal banned traditional clothing.

Those actions were necessary in order to move forward…

So why do you ardently stand up against the movements of a necessary enlightenment ?

But taking control over tens of thousands mosques, and replacing the current imams with “government friendly” imams led to the fact that mosques were to used to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were also used to spread the Kemalist ideology.

He, by no means, ruled over the local mosques. He just straightened them up for the well-being of the fresh state.

I’m not totally sure but I think the Muslims suffering the most, besides Kurds and Armenians, were the Sufi Muslims who got their monasteries confiscated and rituals outlawed.

Your above statement simply adds up to the prohibiton of freedom isn't factual at all.

I’ve done some research regarding Ataturks reforms since I started this thread, as you may have known, and some of the reforms Kemal put into practice during his “westernization” were deeply disturbing. Ordering Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah, and replace the name of the 5 time prayers and the call for prayers with Turkish names? What?! I understand calling Kurds “mountain Turks” (unlike sea and jungle Turks), but that fact that he DID put these reforms into practice in a country were the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims? Not the mention that he changed many mosques into museums.

I must admit that your sheer hatred against Atatürk stands out prominently. He tried to remove/reduce the notable influence of religious values over the population to avoid irreversible revolts against the brand new system of himself.

Kemal was a military genius in every way, and he did as a matter of fact found the modern Turkish state – but not though peace, equality of freedom of speech like the European countries – but though suppression, massacres and massive human rights violations.

Are you aware of the condition of the Ottoman Empire at that time? Do you think it is easy to reunite an entirely fragmented nation? It takes more than you think it does to forge many seperate partitions of a dissolved nation into a solid one once again. You have to go through the darkness (name it whatever you want) to reach up for the light. Atatürk called the shots to catch up on his task.

As long as Turkish military and the state bureaucracy are infiltrated with Kemalist/secularists and act as the guardians of Ataturk’s reforms and work to preserve Kemalism and weaken Islam – Turkey will be a torn country.

That's why we have a popular investigation called "Ergenekon". The state is currently purged off the unwanted bureaucrats who protect those reforms..


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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2009 at 12:51
Dont think soo. Turkey is a secular country, everybody could belive whatever they want.

I love Turkiye and its people but ...

hmmm - this has nothing to do with Kemal Atatuk but try passing out Bibles in Turkiye today. I know of groups who have done that and once they are caught they get deported. I met some missionaries on a ferry in the Bosporus and when I said the missionary word they hushed me and said that they could get deported. I also met some Christian Turks who own a coffee shop and book store and out of curiosity I asked them did they have church services there. Their first reaction was to also shush me because someone might be listening and then they told me we do not have the same religious freedoms you have in the USA. I know they sold Christian material and even Bibles but it is very restricted in the area of expression. I would hope that Turkiye would allow religious freedom and many Turks I met on an individual basis did not care what one believed, apparently, some groups do not like competition. Overall Turkiye is a free country but it seems not when it comes to religion or in comparison to the USA.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2009 at 14:07
Originally posted by eaglecap

Overall Turkiye is a free country but it seems not when it comes to religion or in comparison to the USA.
Islamic groups are also closely watched by the Turkish government. I think the Turkish government fears religious turmoil and political instability that would follow.  
 
In practice, that means that Turks are free to be secular, practice moderate forms of Islam or to practice Christianity or Judaism if that is their "inherited" religion.  Successful convert movements to either Christianity or fundamentalist Islam can threaten the political / religious balance in Turkey.
 
As a side note, I would much rather explain to the Turkish Police that I converted from moderate Islam to Christianity than explain that I have been Muslim from birth but have "awakened" to Wahhabi Islam.   


Edited by Cryptic - 08-Sep-2009 at 14:09
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2009 at 14:28
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by eaglecap

Overall Turkiye is a free country but it seems not when it comes to religion or in comparison to the USA.

Islamic groups are also closely watched by the Turkish government. I think the Turkish government fears religious turmoil and political instability that would follow.  

 

In practice, that means that Turks are free to be secular, practice moderate forms of Islam or to practice Christianity or Judaism if that is their "inherited" religion.  Successful convert movements to either Christianity or fundamentalist Islam can threaten the political / religious balance in Turkey.

 

As a side note, I would much rather explain to the Turkish Police that I converted from moderate Islam to Christianity than explain that I have been Muslim from birth but have "awakened" to Wahhabi Islam.   


that makes it more clear -thanks
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2009 at 13:25
Kemal Ataturk really brought Turkiye into both the 20th and because of his influences the 21st c. AD To the Greeks he was bad but to the Turks he was a Saint, just keep it there please. I don't want to turn this into some type of Greek/Turk fight.

Sad, for the reasons you mention Christians probably could not have a huge prayer ralley like this in your capital.
see link:
http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/belief-blog/2009/sep/03/muslim-prayers-to-surround-us-capitol/

With all its faults America has freedom of religion. Was Kemal religious in any way at all?
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  Quote Hypocrisy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 04:55
Originally posted by eaglecap

Was Kemal religious in any way at all?


Atatürk wasn't religious at any point of his whole life. He might have tried to seem slightly religious to earn greater respect from the public and make his way towards independence. He couldn't have achieved his goals without exhorting people's (religious) sentiments which is key to public loyalty at that time. A bunch of people whose religious values were excessively appraised by the Ottoman Empire must be indoctrinated in a decent way in terms of religion.

This is what he has done during his leadership, in my opinion.
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