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Mysteries of Darabgerd (Round City of Darius)

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mysteries of Darabgerd (Round City of Darius)
    Posted: 06-Aug-2009 at 01:23
Today I looked at Google map and found some very interesting views of the ancient round city of Darabgerd in the south of Darab, of cource the city of Darab is also old.
 

Some more info about the large Azarakhsh Fire temple in the heart of mountain: http://www.amordaden.blogfa.com/post-183.aspx as you read it was originally a temple of Aryan Mehr worshipors or better to say a Mithraeum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraeum (Mithraeum is a place of worship for the followers of the mystery religion of Mithraism.)
 


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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2009 at 11:49
Darabger? it should be Darabkart/d

thanks Cyrus for satellite images
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2009 at 13:58
I had never heard Darabkart/d!! Of course this city is also called Darabjerd which is the Arabicized version of this Persian word, the reason is just that there is no 'g' sound in Arabic language and Persian "g" is usually changed to "j" in this language, like Gorgan which has been chaned to "Jorjan" in Arabic.
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2009 at 12:01
I still say it's Darabkard
Gardizi: " ... Shahr-e Darabkard o bana farmod va Darabshah be Mesr ..."
&
Shatrestanhaei Eranshatr:
I read " Shatrestani Darapkart Daraei Daraian kart "
&
Titus: Sentence: 42     šahrestān dārāb-kird dārāy ī dārāyān kard.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2009 at 09:43

But according your own link of that Middle Persian book, that is Darabgerd (دارابگرد), anyway the Persian suffix "-gerd" (town, city) has an old Indo-European origin and comes from PIE base *gher- "to enclose", it can be comapred with Germanic suffix "-gard" (Old Norse Asgard & German Stuttgart), Slavic "-grad" (Russian Leningrad), ...

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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2009 at 10:40
Shocked



then the last Word is Gerd!
Shatrestani Darapgerd Daraie Daraian gerd!!!

I also put Titus transliteration.
I read wrong, is Titus wrong too??

ِDo you refer to my link to Šahrestānhā ī Ērānšahr, Turaj daryaei?
yes he read this word gerd
 
but why it's not same for:
Sentence: 48
Turaj daryaei: ایران-کرد-شاپور
Titus: ērān-kard-šāpuhr
me: Eran kart Shapuhr

Sentence: 54
Turaj daryaei:ایران-اسان-کرد-قباد
Titus: ērān-āsān-kard-kawād
me: Eran asan kart

For both he read Kard, but just for this on he read Gerd!!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2009 at 06:50

I don't know what you mean, there are certainly some differences between Persian verbs and suffixes, a verb at the end makes a sentence in Persian, don't you think that there should at least some cities in Modern Persian with the suffix "-kard"?!! If you read it:  Darabkard then this one  should be Yazdkard, not Yazdgerd.

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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2009 at 11:51
I asked it today:
Kart in some cases has been changed to Gerd in modern persian but this Gerd doesn't mean Gerd,
that Gerd in Pahlavi is Girt

: in Pahlavi => YazatKart & in modern persian => Yazdgerd but does not mean "enclosed yazat"!


"Shatrestani Darapkart Daraei Daraian kart" => Dara son Dara built Darapkart

: this word holds that sentence: Darap Kart : built by Dara
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2009 at 13:18
However the Proto-IE verb *gher- means "to enclose" but different similar words come from it, as you read here like Old English gyrdan "to gird, encircle" and Persian gardidan "to circulate, round", so Yazdgerd simply means "God/Yazat around [him]", doesn't it? Anway I think "enclosed by God/Yazat" can be better name than "built by God/Yazat", don't you think so?
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2009 at 14:39
Cyrus, in Pahlavi it's Kart than changed to gerd in modern
 I think it's not right to mean the word in new shape by old word, these are 2 different words.

Yazdgerd is still being created by god, isn't it? ;) 
I'll ask about Yazdgerd
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2009 at 06:27
You know "K" and "G" symbols in the Middle Persian (Pahlavi) alphabet are almost the same, like some other different letters which have similar symbols in this alphabet, as I remember the symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word, otherwise as "G", so you can't say for sure how a word was eactly pronounced by just reading a Middle Persian script, sometimes ago in Tehran University Dr. Turaj Daryaei held a seminar about a new discovered Sassanid coin, however there was a readable Pahlavi script on this coin but Dr. Daryaei said this script can't help use because it can be read in several different forms, so he just discussed about images on the coin.
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2009 at 10:25
I asked about Yazdger, it means " created by god" " Xoda afarid, Xoda dad "

I remember the symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word,

Na
Ex:http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/kost.JPG Kost=Region or Kavos or Kaixosro

You know "K" and "G" symbols in the Middle Persian (Pahlavi) alphabet are almost the same,

Na, "Ke" is only "ke"
"Ye, De, Dh, Ge, Je" has same shape

http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/eran.JPG  Eran: 2nd is "Ye"
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/kart.JPG  Kart: 1st on is "Ke"
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/gorgan.JPG   Gorgan

are "Ke" & "Ge" look same?
What you want is Girt:http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/girt.JPG is it look same as Kart?http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/kart.JPG

& at last it's not change anything, someone like to read only this one "Ge" instead "Ke", on problem
but it's not a reason for changing the meaning

Samarkant pronounce SamarQand nowadays may I translate Qand as sugar ?


Edited by Behi - 12-Aug-2009 at 10:27
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2009 at 11:55

I just looked at Dr. Mohsen Abolghasemi's "A Manual of Old Iranian Languages" (راهنماي زبانهاي باستاني ايران) page 170:

It says what I said: «symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word, otherwise as "G"», so that word couldn't be Darabkard but Darabgerd. 
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2009 at 13:35
wow, I posted an example K as K at beginning

ok here is right one, K as K everywhere!

http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/Damik.JPGDamik=> Zamin: Earth
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/evak.JPG Evak=> Yek: one
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/Nevak.JPG Nevak=> Nik: well
& this one has both:
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/Gevak.JPG Gevak=>Ja:place
& by this rule http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/gorgan.JPGGorgan should be Gorkan, but it's not!
why have should they write K & read g when there is letter to show it????
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2009 at 13:49
«symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word, otherwise as "G"

I proved it's wrong
is one word or a compound of 2?
Darap + Kart or ur Gerd
as u see writer left space between 2 words

& more ex. from Šahrestānhā ī Ērānšahr
Maleka malek, a Hozvaresh for Shahan sha
Alaksandr
Nikir
or SamarKand, if it was Gant, what's the meaning of Gant?
Gantak=Dirty
Kant=>Kand=~dig
we still say dastkand not dastgand



Edited by Behi - 13-Aug-2009 at 07:57
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2009 at 01:31

Behi, it denpends on our knowledge of the words, as much as we know Samargant, Tashgant, ... are wrong, Darabkert, Dastkerd, Susankert, ... are also wrong.

For example look at the first sentence of "Shahrestaniha i eran":

According to Titus: Click Here, it is read as: "pad nām ud nērōg ud ayārīh ī dādār ohrmazd, jadag ī nēk.", as you see, exists in the words "nērōg", "jadag" and "nēk", in two wrods it is read as "g" and the last one as "k".

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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2009 at 04:07
Darabkert, Dastkerd, Susankert, ... are also wrong

Yes, wrong, it’s Kart & if you say it’s wrong too, what is right??
Gert???
but you said here:

it depends on our knowledge of the words,

is it which knowledge that says Gert is right??!!
this one:
«symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word, otherwise as "G"»

I said K is just as K & proved this rule is wrong:

 Damik=> Zamin: Earth
 Evak=> Yek: one
 Nevak=> Nik: well
& this one has both:
 Gevak=>Ja:place
…& more ex. from Šahrestānhā ī Ērānšahr
Maleka malek, a Hozvaresh for Shahan sha
Alaksandr
Nikir
or SamarKand…


 

is one word or a compound of 2?
Darap + Kart or ur Gerd
as u see writer left space between 2 words


or this one:
our ancestors had 2 words for Gerd?! They wrote one Kart, read & meant sometimes Gerd
& one, Girt, read & meant it Gerd
inqadr ahmaq bodan?
& show me where is the Pahlavi word of Gerd http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/girt.JPG

You brings up Titus, ok , it’s same source that says:
šahrestān dārāb-kird dārāy ī dārāyān kard.

I agree it’s still wrong, just K is right “i” & “d” is wrong
as you see here:

Sentence: 48
Turaj daryaei: ایران-کرد-شاپور
Titus: ērān-kard-šāpuhr

Sentence: 54
Turaj daryaei:ایران-اسان-کرد-قباد
Titus: ērān-āsān-kard-kawād

Both says Kard & not Girt or Gerd or Kirt,
also the “D” is still wrong

& here:
"pad nām ud nērōg ud ayārīh ī dādār ohrmazd, jadag ī nēk.", as you see,  exists in the words "nērōg", "jadag" and "nēk", in two wrods it is read as "g" and the last one as "k".


I said: K during age changed to g & then H
as:Farzanak=>Farzanag=>Farzaneh
or deleted from word:
Menok=>Menog=>Mino
then by this rule am I allowed to read:
Nik=> NiH
Nerok=> NeroH
DarapHart
BirHant
SamarHand

It’s what the readers done. in some words they read G because the pronunciation changed to G in next periods, they saw it’s Birjand  then they thought it was G, it’s right until here, but they thought it always from 1st day of creation was G & then made such this wrong rule
«symbol of "K" can be read as "K" just at beginning of the word, otherwise as "G"»


answer me, sometime our ancestors liked reed K & sometimes G!?WHY? Prove it for me
what healthy mind accept that to write something & read totally different one

this time try answer to me instead running


Edited by Behi - 13-Aug-2009 at 07:56
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2009 at 05:01
I think you certainly know Pahlavi script was derived from Aramaic and used an abjad alphabet, so there was no "G" sound and the symbols of "J" and "K" were used for this sound too, we know Modern Persian suffix "-gerd" existed in the Old Persian as "-garta" like in Asagarta (Sagartia), therefore it won't be difficult to say the word should be certainly read as "Daragerd/Darabgart".
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2009 at 07:50
Originally posted by Cyrus

.... the word should be certainly read as "Daragerd/Darabgart".

I agree but not at that meaning what you want
Originally posted by Behi

K during age changed to g

or at last you accept it is not circle, don't you?

about Ashakart:
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/DSC00194.jpg

http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/DSC00197.jpg

p36, Farhang-e Hozvareshhai-e Dabire Pahlavi, Dr. Freydon Joneidi

somthing more:
http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/kart.JPG between "k" & "R"
"a" in pahlavi is default sound & not need to show by http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/a.JPG
but "e" or "Ei" needs http://www.allempires.com/Uploads/y.JPG

Edited by Behi - 13-Aug-2009 at 07:58
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2009 at 08:21
I found Article & posted in Persian section:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27608&PID=625162#625162
صورت دیگر این واژه ی «کردن» را با چند مثال بررسی کنیم تا بتوانیم به «کنده» بازگردیم.

شهرستان دارابکرت با تخفیف «ت» به «دال» به گونه ی «دارابکرد» و آنگاه «دارابگرد» و پس از آن به صورت «دارابجرد» درآمده. یعنی شهری که دارا آن را کرد یا ساخت و به همین صورت نام هایی دیگر چون دستجرد، ویروجرد یا بروجرد و مثل آن در فارسی دری داریم که معرب گونه ی دستگَرد و ویروگَرد و بهرامگرد و غیره است.

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