Roman/Greek Ethnicy and Physical Traits

Well, I sense that some will think that this topic is irrelevant, useless, and maybe racist for some. I just want to make it clear: I'm not a racist. It's as simple as that.

Now, why would I care about this?
Well, there's a belief called "Nordicism". That belief basically says that Nordics are the superior race and that are responsible for almost all the greatest civilizations in history, as Rome, Greece, and Egypt would be. Please, let's not touch Egypt in this topic, since there's a lot to talk about that: This is solely about Romans and Greeks.
While I love Nordic culture and civilizations, I really don't believe that this culture or people are responsible for Rome and Greece. I think that both of them were Mediterrean. I asked some historians about this and they almost laugh when I said them that some people think that they were Nordics, and while maybe it is a theory to laugh about (no offense to anyone), lots of people believe it.
I guess that everything was started by historian "Arthur Kemp". He has a website and a book, called "The March of the Titans", which tells the story of Whites as a whole. Other than (well founded and probably correct) acussations of racism, he says that Roman and Greek nobles were Nordic, giving pictures of sculptures as a source.

What do you all think about this? Would you recommend me anything to read about this topic?

My opinion is that while they had a degree of light hair and eyes, they were mostly dark haired and eyed, and light skin. Euro-Mediterrean features basically. Though I never read anything about this specific topic, I'm writing by general things about this civilizations I read and common sense (Southern Europe=Mostly Mediterrean).

The agriculture and first Neolithic civilisations have been brought in all Europe by migrants from Minor Asia, Levant and Mesopotamia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Neolithic

Originally posted by Menumorut The agriculture and first Neolithic civilisations have been brought in all Europe by migrants from Minor Asia, Levant and Mesopotamia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Neolithic

kudos to you

You should check out this site "Greek and Roman Art".

http://www.flickr.com/groups/492405@N20/pool/

Through the contemporary portraits you can gain a vague idea of what Romans and Greeks looked like. Another good source is via the frescos and mosaics of Pompeii, that have survived intact over the millenium. Just scan for "Pompeii, fresco", or "Pompeii, mosaic", a series of collections would come up.
Most of the sources seem to indicate that the ancient Greeks and Italians looked very similar to their modern descendants.

Another thing to be careful about is that "Roman" is not an ethnicity, nor is it a race; instead, it is a "citizenship" of a multi-ethnic state.
It started off as a city state in Central Italy, and gradually expanded throughout Italy and the Mediterranean to absorb new peoples into its society. By the Pax Romana in the 1st-2nd centuries A.D.; a Roman citizen could come from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds: Celtic, Latin, Greek, Numidian, Lybian, Syrian, Illyrian, Nubian, or any of the obscure nationalities of the Balkans and Asia Minor.

There is an enduring misconception that the Greeks and Romans were "European civilizations". I'd best describe them as "Mediterranean" rather than European; because Romanization occured in North Africa, Asia Minor, and the Middle East as much as it did in Europe (but it did not in Germany); and the Greeks received far more cultural influences from nations of the other side of the Mediterranean than from Central Europe.

What happened was that "European Civilization", that evolved after the Middle Ages, took inspirations from Greece and Rome.

This statue looks more "Etruscan" than "Roman" to me, especially in the shape of the eyes.
Is your cousin's wife Italian?

Originally posted by Dúnadan I obviously agree with you, but do you have any source? I want to write something about it once for all. When you google "Race Romans", you get tons of websites telling that they were Nordic. Thus more and more people get confused, so I feel that I need to do something about it. I guess that few peopel care about it because is quite obvious, how would Romans or Greeks be Nordic?

Ok, as I promised.
There's a blog of an anthropologist that has taken personaly care of Arthur Kemp and his girberish: http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/kemp/

All you need about his falacies are there. He has posted photoshoped pictures from his book and compares them to the original. Everytime Arthur Kemp tryes to correct himself this guy updates his blog with the new data. It's all you need about Arthur Kemp written by a pro.

When it comes to Greeks and their background i suggest this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_199902/ai_n8845695/pg_4/?tag=content;col1

What is good is that it contains references on many many studies in that matter, that you can check out by searching on the same page.

About the Minoans civilization you can check this forum's thread "Minoan Civilization originated in Anatolia" here.

As for the Romans, as Calvo said it is a multiethnic empire. You could start with the Etruscans that most probably were non-IE people comming from Anatolia and were one of the biggest cultural influences of Rome.

Now, i don't know if those white-supremacists touched Egypt, but there it's not hard to proove things since Egyptians spoke an Afroasiatic language.

I will probably return with more info on the Romans.

I might add a few things to consider:

The Greek civilization developed in a mountainous and rocky region in which short distances were very hard to travel through land. This is why I think there were city-states formed in ancient Greece. I think this is a good point for proving that the ancient Greeks did not intermix with other peoples, at least at the heart of their culture and in a larger scale. A Greek society was conservative and closed for the non-Hellene, and it is so even today.

And the face Flipper posted looks totally Greek. I "think" I can identify Greek features on people such as, a particular nose and eyebrows, short height and muscular built, etc.

And let me add that I too was puzzled with all the "Northern Race Superior to all" for some time, until I read about all the achievements of ancient Greeks.

My family is complete greek origin on both sides, but my hair is dark blond with blue eyes, anytime I am asked about my heritage, or where the name Cosmah comes from, the first thing anyone says is " you dont look greek" the only thing I think looks greek on my face is the bridge of my nose, that being said, Im sure all races are capable of having "nordic" looking traits, i have even seen man of african decendant with blue eyes so lets all give a round of applause to genetics. yaaay!

I would really want to hear two guys discussing about ancient Greece and its "origins":Arthur Kampf  and Martin Bernal  . It would be amazing...one would say that Greeks were like Icelanders and the other like Berbers and Ethiopeans.

The blond trait doesn't mean "nord" ancestry. You can see Swedish with dark hair and British  look like mediterranean. That doesn't mean that meds colonized Sweden or Wales...

In ancient greek texts you can understand that of course there were among Greeks blond people(xanthoi)  but they were mentioned as something rare. The same goes with modern Greeks, who in majority are not blond neither black haired, but in majority brown haired, from light brown to darker brown.

A nice text from Dienekes' blog:

Greek medical writer Galen “Mixtures”.

"So much for the formation of the hair; we should now pass on to the features of all the incidental features of the mixtures, as regards the differences of hair according to age, place, and nature of the body. The hair of Egyptians, Arabs, Indians, and of general all peoples who inhabit hot, dry places, has poor growth and is black, dry, curly and brittle. That of the inhabitants of cold, wet places, conversely - Illyrians, Germans, Dalmatians, Sauromatians, and the Scythian types of people in general- has reasonably good growth and is thin, straight, and red. Those who live in some well-balanced land which is between these in quality have hair with extremely good growth, which is strong, fairly black, moderately thick, and neither completely curly nor completely straight. The differences due to age are analogous to these: with regard to the qualities of strength, thickness, size, and colour, infants’ hair is similar to the Germans’, hair in the prime of life to the Ethiopians’, and that of ephebes and children to the hair of people of well-balanced lands."

They are portraits from hellenistic Fayum, with a population of Greeks and locals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

Kanas_Krumesis...you couldn't find many Greeks in Alexandria since the arab conquest of Egypt, and those who were  hellenized there soon got arabized... The last sentence...

Edited by Patrinos - 03-Jan-2010 at 09:52

about what Greeks do you speak? about modern one, about those of the Turkish occupation, about those of the Slavic invasion, about those of The Roman Empire, the Hellenistic Era, the Classic or the Dark ages or even of the Minoan period?