first apperance of the catapult

It must be Phocians in Greece who first introduced the catapults. If i remember right, Phocians under Phayllus leadership defeated Phillip II of Macedonia by using catapults. I am not sure if catapults were introduced before Phocians.

Edited by Antiochus

Kata-pultos.. yep but who knows..

Alexander the Greece

"Yiannis" I know what it means in greek thats why I said Kata-pultos.. but instead of stopping there I wonder if there is an earlier source of this type of weapon a more basic variant.. as there must have been some sort of siege wepons to take over cities..

Originally posted by baracuda "I wonder if there is an earlier source of this type of weapon a more basic variant..

Yes there was, it was called "the bow"

Seriously now, first catapelts were used to throw arrows. They were later modified to throw rocks. As far as I know it was a Greek invention. When it comes to other siege equipment, we have indications that the Assyrians were using rams.

Simple traction catapults were already in use during the Warring States period in China in the 5th-3rd century B.C. Their description appears in the Mozi, a Mohist text under a section on Siege Warfare. Traction catapults started appearing in Europe around the 10-11th century A.D. Early painting/drawings of European catapults look uncannily similar to the Tang dynasty "XuanFeng" catapult. During the Tang dynasty siege of Pyongyang in A.D. 668 during the last year of the campaign against Koguryo, it is written that 300 "XuanFeng" or Whirlwind catapults were used to reduce the city to rubble.

The Persians adapted the traction catapult and invented first the counterweight catapult and then the hinged counterweight catapult. It was these counterweight catapults from islamic world that spread into Europe and into China. The Chinese name for HCW catapults translates loosely to something like "muslim catapult" owing to the muslim engineers the Mongols brought with them to China on their campaigns.

The first documented use of hinge counterweighted catapults (trebuchets) in China was in A.D. 1251 during the mongol siege of Xiangyang. The Song dynasty quickly adapted their existing traction catapults into similar HCW trebuchets but couldn't counter the new mongol terror weapon from the middle east.

The Romans built a torsion catapult called the Mangonel (nicknamed Onager or Kicking donkey). It was not a lever principled catapult but instead used the power of twisted ropes/sinew. This Mangonel was used right up to the medieval era in Europe until they were replaced by first the eastern traction catapult, then the Persian CW trebuchet where they took root and helped hasten the end of the feudal era in Europe.

King Aj�tasattu (493 - 462 B.C.) of the Magadhan empire in India, in a battle against the republican states of the Lichchhavis used a type of catapult called the Mahaashilaakantaka.  I'm not sure what type of catapult this is.  If anyone here has info, please let me know.  I'd like to build one.

In China, the HCW trebuchet, dispite it's power didn't last as long as in Europe because of the early rise of gunpowder weapons. During the abovementioned siege of Xiangyang by the Mongols, the HCW trebuchet was already sharing the limelight with Song dynasty rockets and early versions of the cannon. In Europe, the HCW had it's heyday owing to the longer lag between the introduction of the HCW to Europe and gunpowder based cannon to Europe.

If you want to see pictures of the HCW trebuchet, Roman Mangonel and Tang dynasty XuanFeng traction catapult, you're welcome to come visit my yahoo group, CHF or ShadowedRealms where I showcase the building of scale models of various siege engines from different cultures/civilisations under a photo album titled Medieval Workshop. The current project is a Song dynasty triple-bow Siege Crossbow.

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy


Edited by Liang Jieming

If you like more info, here are a couple of reference you can try researching.

1. Mozi lived 470-391 B.C. and wrote the Mo Ching which includes a section on siege warfare during the Warring States period in China.

2. The reference to the Indian catapult is found I believe in the Jain text of 5th century B.C. though I've yet to read it myself. 

For those interested Liang Jieming has put together (well is putting together, such a huge task is never ending) a comprehensive listing of siege equipment.

There isn't a single moment in history (or a single place) whare we can say that somebode took exsisting missile weapons bow, sling, spear/javelin/dart (with or without woomera/atal throwing aid) and developed  triggered versions that stored up energy  (crossbows, ballistae, catapults etc), but by the fourth  centuart BCE  they  suddenly appear  on battlefields around the world (particuarly in China and in the Greek world).

rgds.
          Tom..

Originally posted by Antiochus It must be Phocians in Greece who first introduced the catapults. If i remember right, Phocians under Phayllus leadership defeated Phillip II of Macedonia by using catapults. I am not sure if catapults were introduced before Phocians.

Phayllos was Onormachus brother but he lost the battle against Phillip. It was Onormachus who defeated Phillip in two battles by using catapults. I think Onormachus is one of the most underrated ancient military commanders but his military skills were superb.

his almost matches the Biblical account of King Uzziah of the 9th century B.C. use of stone throwing machines in the defence of Jerusalem!?

The biblical references are either translation error or just misunderstandings. The reference in Chronicles 2 is likely simply erroneous and in Ezekiel a case of mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek.  Check either E W Marsden �Greek and Roman Artillery� or a recent annotated bible such as the NIV.

[QUOTE] It comes from Han dynasty records of 2000 years ago where Han dynasty scholars investigating the war records of the Zhou dynasty identified in a description of a Zhou dynasty era battle the use of the catapult by the King of Zhou against the Duke of Zheng in 707 B.C. where it is stated that;[?QUOTE]

I sorry to be suspect, but I just don�t buy it. Like the biblical mistake (a Greek translator in an era when catapults were common telescoped technology backward) I can imagine any number of ways that Han era author could misconstrue older documents.

Sure I�d be interested in the original and any information about the text. But I think the key issue is an isolated reference is still hard to trust. I'll admit I'm far more familiar with the Greco-Roman side of the issue, which is why I think the biblical references are mistakes. Within 20-60 years of the introduction of the catapult by Syracuse, you can find not only numerous literary references to catapults, but a defiant response in the nature of fortifications, and period inscriptions referring to catapults, grave inscriptions of professional catapult operators, ammunition dumps, inventory records of bolts and springs, remains of ammunition at sieges, etc.  The problem with the biblical references is that there is no sign in fortifications of the period that catapults existed (they continue to be build as if the battering ram was the most feared weapon). No indication that professional artillery experts were employed, no stockpiles of ammunition, etc, all the things you find in the mid 4^th century.