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Civil War-Which side are you on?

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Civil War-Which side are you on?
    Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:15
Now, I was born in a small and boring town on the outskirts of the Ruhrgebiet ( Ruhr-area), the former industrial heartland of Germany between Duesseldorf and Dortmund.
The only time ever my town gets a mention in Germanys long and distinguished history is as one the centers of the Ruhraufstand, a short-lived rebellion of the steel-and mineworkers of the area in March 1920.
Organised by various Socialist and Communist parties, it was initially a reaction to an failed coup detat by right-wing nationalist and monarchists against the government of the new German republic.
Soon however, it became an attempt to establish a Soviet republic after the Russian example, and a Red Army was formed that consisted of more than 50.000 soldiers and by the end of March 1920, the whole Ruhr-area was under the workers control.
In April the regular German army, supported by the same right-wing volunteers that a few months earlier had tried to bring the government down, invaded the Ruhrarea and the rebellion was brutally oppressed. More than 1000 workers were killed.
It was, until now, the last instance of a Civil War in Germany, certainly not a full blown one, but nevertheless.
So, my questions are, when was the last Civil War in your country, and whose side would you have been on?
It isnt an easy question to answer.
Im not necessarily asking, which side had your sympathies, but which side would you have supported or even fought for with regards to your familys social, political or geographical background. For example, I come from a petit-bourgeoise family of civil servants, and although my sympathies are in hindsight with the workers, I probably would have supported the other side in 1920.
Okay?
So are you a Roundhead or a Cavalier, North or South, Kuomintang or would you have followed Mao on the long march?


Edited by Komnenos
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  Quote Cassivellaunus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:57
I suppose the only real civil war in Britain (really England, at the time) was Cromwell's parliament 'rebellion'. Scotland technically was not part of the United Kingdom then (they would remain seperate for another 66 years), but since old King Charlie was a Scot, (and he had made arrangements for Scottish assistance against Parliament) I would probably have been a Cavalier (or Royalist). Protecting Scottish influence in England since 1603!

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 17:41
fighting for Wrttemberg together with Austria against Prussia and Bitchmark.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:26

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2594& ; ;PN=1

UK's had dozens and dozens, the really bigs ones like the Wars of the Roses and the one between Stephen and Matilda were fought over succession rather than anything important.

There's been a couple of modern ones, Northern Ireland still, and the Republic in the past.

But the really interesting ones were The Great Civil War, The Peasants Revolt and Simon de Montford's rebellion. All these were fought by the rebels against despotism, so I'd be a rebel.



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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:55

Even though my American family is either immigrant or southern in roots, I through full support behind the Union government int he civil war.

Treason and rebellion are fine by me if the circumstances are right, but upholding the rights of  a few backwards plantation lands of people who play pretend ancient greeks and slow down proper industrialization with their sickening feudalism is too much for me.  Also theres the concern of foreign intervention and more wars to follow if 2 Americas have to share a common border.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Cassivellaunus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 20:11
Originally posted by Paul

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2594& ; ; ;PN=1

UK's had dozens and dozens, the really bigs ones like the Wars of the Roses and the one between Stephen and Matilda were fought over succession rather than anything important.

There's been a couple of modern ones, Northern Ireland still, and the Republic in the past.

But the really interesting ones were The Great Civil War, The Peasants Revolt and Simon de Montford's rebellion. All these were fought by the rebels against despotism, so I'd be a rebel.

I was going for the most recent one...

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 23:24

Originally posted by Cassivellaunus

I suppose the only real civil war in Britain (really England, at the time) was Cromwell's parliament 'rebellion'. Scotland technically was not part of the United Kingdom then (they would remain seperate for another 66 years), but since old King Charlie was a Scot, (and he had made arrangements for Scottish assistance against Parliament) I would probably have been a Cavalier (or Royalist). Protecting Scottish influence in England since 1603!

Scotland was independant of Britain because it fought the Bishop's wars against Charles I, in which parliament supported it. Later Scotland supported Parliament against Charles too and Cromwell reconised full Scottish independance. Scotland only came into conflict with Parliament after it twice launched unprovoked invasions of England, once in Charles I's name Second Civil War and once in Charles II's name Third Civil War. It wound up rightfully getting conquered and it was entirely it's own fault.

Few Scotsmen know this, so when won who does comes on this forum I just like to rub it in. Three hundred years of subservience and you brought it entirely upon yourselves...

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  Quote Vamun Tianshu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 23:39
For the American Civil War,I go with the side of the Union.However,as part of my family's immigrancy,I can tell you the Dominican Republic has had a recent Civil War in the mid 1960s.The Americans had overthrown the democratic president Juan Bosch,and wanted Joaquin Balaguer(sympathetic to the recent Dictatorial government before Juan)as president.I would've sided with the ones who wanted Juan Bosch again as president.

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  Quote Cassivellaunus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 00:20
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by Cassivellaunus

I suppose the only real civil war in Britain (really England, at the time) was Cromwell's parliament 'rebellion'. Scotland technically was not part of the United Kingdom then (they would remain seperate for another 66 years), but since old King Charlie was a Scot, (and he had made arrangements for Scottish assistance against Parliament) I would probably have been a Cavalier (or Royalist). Protecting Scottish influence in England since 1603!

Scotland was independant of Britain because it fought the Bishop's wars against Charles I, in which parliament supported it. Later Scotland supported Parliament against Charles too and Cromwell reconised full Scottish independance. Scotland only came into conflict with Parliament after it twice launched unprovoked invasions of England, once in Charles I's name Second Civil War and once in Charles II's name Third Civil War. It wound up rightfully getting conquered and it was entirely it's own fault.

Few Scotsmen know this, so when won who does comes on this forum I just like to rub it in. Three hundred years of subservience and you brought it entirely upon yourselves...

Bah! I do not share your sense of humour!

The Scots indeed switched sides in favour of the monarchy for the final civil wars in which I was referring to. The fact that they were brutally beaten does not change my historical 'affiliation'. However, even if the Engagers had beaten Pym, Cromwell and the other 'lobster-pot-wearers' and restored the sovereignty, Charles (being a competent, but not a very nice king) would most likely have cancelled all terms in exchange for the assistance and continue to neglect and exploit the north as he had always done (unlike his father, he was in no way biased in favour of his heritage).

Did I thank you for reminding us of our ineptitude?

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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 00:22

Well Canada has for the most part of its history been a very peaceful nation. The onlyl aspect which has givin the nation a bit of stirr is the fact that roughly 25% of the population is french and mostly situated in the french province of Qubec which has a border to our beloved capital, Ottawa.

Following independance, the english population continued to dominate politics and business in Qubec following Great Britain's example when Canada had still been a colony of England. During the 1960s, when the world was in much turmoil and the entire "hipee" movement was taking place, directed general against governements and their control, so too were the qubecois(french) against english supremacy.

In 1970, a qubecois terrorist group formed named "FLQ: Front de Libration Qubecois" I believe. (Yes, a canadian terrorist group, something unheard of since) This group began to target rich english residences in Montreal, at the time the banquing and business center of Canada and also the second lagest french city globally which it still is. They mainly planted bombs in mail boxes and such, their goal being to intimidate the english into incoporating governement reform recognizing the linguistic rights of the french in the provicne of qubec.

Well they didn't get enough attention, so one day they kidnapped a brittish politition I believe and the qubec finance minister. This got attention, the qubec premier was so shocked he ran to our prime minister saying our national security was in danger and that Qubec was in a position of open rebellion seeing the french had sympothy for the FLQ effort.

Prime minister Trudeau called for the war act to be put in place, which hadn't been done since the world wars which is an act that gives sepcial rights to the governement when in national danger. This scared the warm sh*t out of the FLQ seeing how Canadian tanks rumbbled into Montreal and the national guard was set up at banquing locations and putting heavy security on the main traffic and adminstration buildings. Seeing how this had NEVER been done before in Canadian history, and seeing how a war has not been fought on Canadian soil since 1812, Canada was in shock.

The FLQ continued on to their mission however which was to bring up their demands to the federal governement, and now with a brittish politicion's life at risk, the governement was obliged to listen.

THe demands of the FLQ included playing on national television a video which announced how much control the english have over the lives of the qubecois revealing much info such as how pretty much the entire administration of qubec is done by english ppl and how many finances and sucked out of the province. For several days the Canadian army scoured the city for these terrorists, and after demands were not met, the FLQ killed the finance minister of quebec leaving him in a car for the governement to find.

Things got serious, they came to a comprimise, the british politicion was set loose, some reforms were made I believe and all the terrorists were deported.

Since then, the financial capital of canada has slowly switched over to toronto, an english speaking city of 5 million surpassing motreal's 3 million and Qubec has gone through much reform and is currently as far as I know, is very representtive of the ppl where french ppl are in the governement. Some sepratist sentiments still exist but it has been mainly resolved. Incorporatting Qubec into the Canadian cosntitution must still take place however.

During this month of national fright, (naemd the october crisis) hundreds of english volonteers presented themselves in the rest of Canada saying they were willing to serve as occupation forces if the french rebelled...wow, thsi si so not like Canada. Never happenned again mind you.

Personally, I believe reform was necessary, but I say do it like india, peaceful revolution....I do ahve sympathy for the priem minister at the time, Trudeau, seeing how he is french, and his entire effort was to bring equalism of the lingusistic groups in Canada. This entire affaire made it seem like he wasn't doing job, when in fact, he was one of canada's greatest prime ministers.

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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 12:33
So, my questions are, when was the last Civil War in your country, and whose side would you have been on?

In the Russian Civil War of 1917-1921 I would have joined the Red Army. The Whites were deffending an archaic order that failed to accomplish anything.
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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 14:48
Well, the South was Pro-Slavery so that pretty much says it right there. I would have been fighting for the Union (the north). Plus, I would not ahve wanted to see my country split apart like that.
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  Quote Moller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 18:16

In Denmark the last war, which could be defined as a civil war, is the so called Three years war 1848-50 where the German minority in South Jutland (the Schleswig-Holstein area) made an uprise with support from Prussia and Austria. I am Danish so there is no doubt that I would support the government troops.

Another one would be in 1536 where some Jutlandic farmers where rebelling against the landowners and some German overlords which controlled the country at that time. I am not out of an aristocratic family so if I was not a mercianry soldier I would support the rebels.

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  Quote The Golden Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 18:39
Originally posted by Moller

In Denmark the last war, which could be defined as a civil war, is the so called Three years war 1848-50 where the German minority in South Jutland (the Schleswig-Holstein area) made an uprise with support from Prussia and Austria. I am Danish so there is no doubt that I would support the government troops.

Another one would be in 1536 where some Jutlandic farmers where rebelling against the landowners and some German overlords which controlled the country at that time. I am not out of an aristocratic family so if I was not a mercianry soldier I would support the rebels.

I realize the question asks the opinion of the person who's nation had a civil war but the rebellion of the germans in Shelswig-Holstein was against Danish supremacy who conquered the land. THey were fighting to rejoin their german brethren and that part of the country was completly german in any case, so seems to me this was their liberty war, why would you want to keep them emprisonned? Just curious...

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 02:03

technically, we are still in the middle of a civil war since the roc on taiwan and the prc on the mainland have never signed a peace treaty.

throughout history, there've been more than 1000 civil wars of all scales all fought for the reunification of china.



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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 19:47

As an American with both North and South ties, I don't know who I would have fought for.  I think that legally the South had the right to secede, but the law should not be obeyed when it allows injustice. 

Again, I'm not sure, but I'm glad the North won and reunited my country.  I think North and South are far better cooperating as Americans instead of competing as Confederates and Federals.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 13:12
Civil wars are the best type of wars ever invented by the man kind. In the civil war it really doesnt matter on what side you are. The important thing is that civil war is the only type of war which may give you an opportunity to kill the people that you know well and dislike.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 13:17
Originally posted by Mosquito

Civil wars are the best type of wars ever invented by the man kind. In the civil war it really doesnt matter on what side you are. The important thing is that civil war is the only type of war which may give you an opportunity to kill the people that you know well and dislike.


I couldn't agree more! I was married to a Serbian throughout the recent Civil Wars in Yugoslavia and heard enough stories that ,alas, support your comment.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 14:40
The Mexican Revolution in 1910.
Let's ride with Villa !
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 14:45

Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Mosquito

Civil wars are the best type of wars ever invented by the man kind. In the civil war it really doesnt matter on what side you are. The important thing is that civil war is the only type of war which may give you an opportunity to kill the people that you know well and dislike.


I couldn't agree more! I was married to a Serbian throughout the recent Civil Wars in Yugoslavia and heard enough stories that ,alas, support your comment.

Yes. It sounds very nice and sound like both truth and some kind of wisdom. I regret that im not the author of this sentence. It is moreless what said Jean Paul Trintigan in the french-spanish movie titled "Fiesta" which is about spanish civil war. I saw the movie many years ago but still remember this sentence. Trintigan in the movie plays the role of colonel of Franco's army. He was commander of garrison in one small city and his duty was to make sure that all enemies of Franco will be executed. So he is organising public executions which were called "Fiesta".

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