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Did Abubakari II reach America before Columbus?
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Abubakari II reach America before Columbus?
    Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 23:56
Originally posted by Reg

Quite, which is why the discussion was moot to begin with. A more interesting, non-speculative take on Abubakari II's expedition would be to look at what can actually be learned from the sources, rather than what cannot.

The discussion isn't moot to begin with. This is a very interesting and odd piece of history, and I think deserves much more attention than what is shown to it.
I would say that the majority of what has been talked about here is what we can learn from the sources, but it is worth considering the motivation of Abu Bakr II, and the fate of the fleet even if we have no solid evidence in that regard. He was trying to reach a land mass on the other side of the Atlantic (quite possibly east asia as gcle points out)

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 26-Jan-2009 at 23:56
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 00:33
I wonder if there is any evidence were Abu's expedition headed. They could perfectly had headed to Madagascar crossing the Cape Hope! A route that is suppossed to be known by Indonesians since the beginning of the Cristian age.
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Posts: 132 		  Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 01:43
Wow i've never heard of this, really fascinating stuff...see history tends to be expressed the most by a select group of people. We seem to ignore the fact there were other non western europeans who also sent of expeditions-the Chinese, Lief Ericson, maybe Abu Bakr too.

just one question..If Abu Bakr II sent out two fleets of 200 ships, where have the ships gone? Where are they?


Edited by Jallaludin Akbar - 27-Jan-2009 at 01:44
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 03:10

History knows what Chinese and Leif Ericson did... since the Middle Ages!

I could bet money they reached Madagascar! After all, there is founded arguments that Indonesians reached West Africa from Madagascar... around the time of Crist! In the case of Americas, no way. 200 ships or 20.000 people would have left its mark in a region with so low density as the Americas by that century... and genetics shows otherwise. Besides, no single remains exist...

Thinking that expedition reached the Americas is just vane especulation. They didn't.
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 10:24
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The discussion isn't moot to begin with. This is a very interesting and odd piece of history, and I think deserves much more attention than what is shown to it.
I would say that the majority of what has been talked about here is what we can learn from the sources, but it is worth considering the motivation of Abu Bakr II, and the fate of the fleet even if we have no solid evidence in that regard. He was trying to reach a land mass on the other side of the Atlantic (quite possibly east asia as gcle points out)


His motivation is worth considering, but as far as I can see it's not possible to learn anything about the expedition's fate from the sources, hence you can't really "consider" its fate as there is nothing to base it on, it'll be nothing but a flight of fancy.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2009 at 23:47
Originally posted by Pinguin

I could bet money they reached Madagascar! After all, there is founded arguments that Indonesians reached West Africa from Madagascar... around the time of Crist! In the case of Americas, no way. 200 ships or 20.000 people would have left its mark in a region with so low density as the Americas by that century... and genetics shows otherwise. Besides, no single remains exist...

Well, not genetics, as there is plenty of mixture between native americans and west africans as a result of the slave trade and you couldn't tell one from another. But certainly your right in saying there is no evidence of them arriving, which is why I said that if anyone arrived it'd been only a few who completely intergrated into the native population.

Actually from Mali we don't even know that they headed west. They could perfectly have headed south. Mali had access to both coasts. I doubt they would have got to madagascar, because that would mean passing land as they rounded the cape. My guess is they would have stopped when (if) they reached land.
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 09:00
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Actually from Mali we don't even know that they headed west. They could perfectly have headed south.


New thread; "Did Abubakari II reach the South Pole before Amundsen?".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 11:31
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

...Well, not genetics, as there is plenty of mixture between native americans and west africans as a result of the slave trade and you couldn't tell one from another.
 
There never was a report of a curly Indian, in any account, whatsoever!! LOLLOL There weren't curly people in the Americas before contact at all.
 
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

...
But certainly your right in saying there is no evidence of them arriving, which is why I said that if anyone arrived it'd been only a few who completely intergrated into the native population.
 
That's true, but a landing of such scale would have left physical evidence: towns, a foreign culture imported, archeological remains. Besides that would had happened just a century before the Europeans landed in the Americas. And from the Europeans chronicles and Indian stories what happened in the Americas from the 12th century to the 15th is very clear and the record exist.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

...
Actually from Mali we don't even know that they headed west. They could perfectly have headed south. Mali had access to both coasts. I doubt they would have got to madagascar, because that would mean passing land as they rounded the cape. My guess is they would have stopped when (if) they reached land.
 
Madagascar is an interesting target, because it is well known Indonesians there contacted with muslims from the east, and also they were the best sailors in ancient Africa, and some believe they reached Mali from the South before than muslims arrived to the region.
 
 
 
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Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 06:49

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Actually from Mali we don't even know that they headed west. They could perfectly have headed south. Mali had access to both coasts. I doubt they would have got to madagascar, because that would mean passing land as they rounded the cape. My guess is they would have stopped when (if) they reached land.

I'm not sure ... a fleet of such a large size does rather resemble the kind of exploratory missions one would conduct along a coastline, not into the open sea. Mali may have been attempting to explore southern Africa and make a show of its power to the nations they found there, with the ultimate goal of reaching Madagascar. Sort of like Zheng He's treasure fleet, that was sent around Asia and as far west as Arabia and Ethiopia, to explore, trade, and make a show of Chinese power. Mali could've been doing something very similar. 

It kind of makes sense ... in that most nations who developed blue-water ambitions usually had alot of long-range littoral expeditions and achievements under their belt first.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 11:26
And makes a lot of sense. Just remember than the region of Mozambique and also Zimbabwe were in a minning booming with the extraction of gold, part of which was exported by the Indonesians in Madagascar right the South East Asia! Mali was another gold producer region, so it makes sense to send expeditions that way to control a market they knew existed. Besides, going around Africa following the coastal lines was done by ancient phoenicians, so it wasn't an impossible achievement.
Besides, Portugueses started the same way exploring the coastal lines of Africa, two centuries afterwards.


Edited by pinguin - 30-Jan-2009 at 11:28
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Posts: 486 		  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 10:33
Originally posted by pinguin

 
There never was a report of a curly Indian, in any account, whatsoever!! LOLLOL There weren't curly people in the Americas before contact at all.
 
 
According to Tiemoko Konate, who heads a research project being carried out in Mali tracing Abubakari's journeys, he and his team are examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 05:04
Originally posted by Carcharodon

... 
According to Tiemoko Konate, who heads a research project being carried out in Mali tracing Abubakari's journeys, he and his team are examining reports by Columbus, himself, who said he found black traders already present in the Americas.
 
 
I knew that you would believe these kind of fantasies. Just notice that "greatest explorer" is in quotes. Show physical evidence of Africans in the Americas in pre-Colombian times, if you can; there is not a single one. By the way, Spaniards called llamas "sheeps of this land". So, theirs precision in theirs descriptions is not something that impress me very much.
 
Please, stop to make the game to Afrocentrists.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 19-May-2009 at 05:06
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Posts: 486 		  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 12:03

I never said I believed that Africans reached America in precolumbian times. I just stated that some people believe so, including the people conducting the above mentioned research project.

But until real proof surfaces I´m also a sceptic in this matter. So you don´t have to put words in my mouth or label me Afrocentric or centric in any other way.
 
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Posts: 19 		  Quote dieheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 13:26
Dont worry about it man. After reading this thread, this guy seems to have a problem as many others do on this forum.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:34
Originally posted by Carcharodon

I never said I believed that Africans reached America in precolumbian times. I just stated that some people believe so, including the people conducting the above mentioned research project.

But until real proof surfaces I´m also a sceptic in this matter. So you don´t have to put words in my mouth or label me Afrocentric or centric in any other way.
 
 
No proof will ever surface, but new pseudoscientific stories and wild claims will keep appearing every single year.
 
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Posts: 486 		  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:38
Originally posted by pinguin

 
No proof will ever surface, but new pseudoscientific stories and wild claims will keep appearing every single year. 
 
That is in the nature of man, always inventing stories just to entertain or to get attention.
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Posts: 486 		  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 14:51
By the way here is one more example of people trying to prove they came to America in Pre-columbian time:
 
Princess Taiping, a replica of a smaller ship from the Ming dynasty of China managed to reach America and almost managed to return when it was hit by a large ship and sunk just 40 km from home.
 
"The ship was commissioned by 61-year-old Liu Ningsheng ("Nelson Liu"), the first person to ever circle the earth in a yacht, to demonstrate the plausibility of the theory that the Chinese explored the American West Coast decades before the voyages of Christopher Columbus. The ship was a replica of a war ships in the navies of Zheng He and Koxinga. It was 54 feet long and 45 feet wide. Thirty craftsmen from Fuzhou, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou spent six years building the ship, without nuts and bolts, using traditional Chinese shipbuilding techniques.It was entirely wind-powered, with three cotton sails."
(From Wikipedia)
 
I started a separate thread about this here:
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:13

Yes. And now you are going to talk about the Ramayana flying saucers, or Blancanieves?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:14
Originally posted by Carcharodon

[
That is in the nature of man, always inventing stories just to entertain or to get attention.
 
It seems the nature of the man of the Old World is to invent histories to robb the heritage of Native Americans.
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Posts: 486 		  Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 15:17
There are actually a lot of people in the New World who also propose a lot of similar theories and ideas.
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