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Minoans in America

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Minoans in America
    Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 16:58
Originally posted by red clay

There are literally thousands found across the US.  Bat Creek, Grave creek, pemberton axe, The Newark Decalogue and on.  These aren't new. Most have been known for decades.  But until recently anything that didn't follow the accepted history was automatically a hoax.  
 
New science recently done on older known artifacts, such as the Kensington and Heavener Runestone, shows them to be authentic.
 
 

I used to think the same way Red until I noticed what looked like Egyptian or Phoenician beads in the grave of a Siberian princess. If Classical era traders made it as far as Russia, it's possible they could sail across the Pacific, as the blacks who colonised Australia did.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33209
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 11:04
There are literally thousands found across the US.  Bat Creek, Grave creek, pemberton axe, The Newark Decalogue and on.  These aren't new. Most have been known for decades.  But until recently anything that didn't follow the accepted history was automatically a hoax.  
 
New science recently done on older known artifacts, such as the Kensington and Heavener Runestone, shows them to be authentic.
 
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 17:36
Originally posted by medenaywe

Flash drives&HDD discs of expeditions are on search list.SmileWe need epitaph stones with the inscriptions.Bad
Creek stone is one of them.(even if i call this Demotic&Ancient "Egyptian"&Ancient "Greek")

How substantial are the ancient finds? One stone might have simply been washed ashore from a shipwreck, but the presence of many artefacts make the theory of colonisation more credible. I wish we had Red back to answer these questions
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 09:16
Flash drives&HDD discs of expeditions are on search list.SmileWe need epitaph stones with the inscriptions.Bad
Creek stone is one of them.(even if i call this Demotic&Ancient "Egyptian"&Ancient "Greek")
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 09:01
It would also be interesting to know whether Indian stories record encounters with these strangers in large canoes
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 19:33
A million dollar question for a million dollar hypothesis.
 
I have not read the following or his earlier work but it might be worth a perusal.
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 17:10
I guess it's possible they came over to mine copper. Did they bring workers with them, or use Natives as slaves?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 14:41
We're talking about a cross atlantic voyage, not the pacific.Smile The trip was short enough to be able to stow enough provisions.
 
Since I wrote that last post I've done some reading.  The Minoans likely were here, actually as time goes on, it begins to look like a question of who didn't discover America.
 
The amount of Copper mined at IsleRoyal has been estimated at about a Billion pounds.  Most of which was "float copper".  It has a purity of approx 95%.  It really didn't need to be smelted before being shipped.
Copper from Mich. has been compared to copper ingots taken from the only shipwreck known for certain to be Minoan.  Purity and other characteristics matched perfectly.
 
I don't have a source for this, but several mining experts have estimated that, using the tools and implements available to them,  it would have needed 10,000 people working over a period of a thousand years to remove that much copper.  I've heard that a few times, but haven't found any secondary mention of it yet.
 
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2012 at 19:17
Very interesting Red. The Phoenicians were certainly capable of long-distance voyages, being the greatest sailors of the ancient world, but what would they have done about food and water?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2012 at 09:50
Nick, it wasn't Minoans.  The Phoneticians were the people who mined copper in NA.  Their motivation was gold.
High grade copper ore was not easy to come by, the Colossus used all available copper stocks in the "old world".  They were able to load up with copper ingots, then swing by Britain for tin, a commodity even more scarce than copper, and they had the materials for bronze.
The evidence for this is all over the "upper Peninsula" of Michigan.  It's been known for years that someone mined millions of pounds of copper and smelted it in the same area.  And while it's also known that the Amerinds had a copper trade set up, it could never account for the mass mining effort that appears to have occurred.  The amount of copper artifacts found in NA wouldn't fill the bed of a pickup truck.  The Amerinds most likely used the easily found "Native copper".  At that time there was a fair amount of fairly pure copper "nuggets" that could be surface collected and used without smelting.  But not enough to account for the mining.
 
Nick, this isn't anything new.  The evidence for them being here is all over the East Coast and Canada.  There have been artifacts found, right in the river valley I live in, that have Tartesian and Phonetician scripts on them.   Records show they have been finding them since the mid 1800's.  I always wondered what brought them here myself.  Then I heard about the mining in Michigan and started thinking.  There are 2 old copper mines in one of the Northern countys of New Jersey.  The Dutch mined them when they first settled NY.  However, evidence has shown that the mines had existed long before the Dutch, and long before the Lenape arrived.
Again, the motivation is greed.  A common sailor could go on a voyage of 3 or so years and come home a wealthy man it was a sort of "sweat equity".
 


Edited by red clay - 30-May-2012 at 08:56
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2012 at 19:10
Why would the Minoans have gone to mine copper in America when they could acquire it through trade with their European and Middle Eastern neighbors?
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 18:05
These were the Veneti.

The ships Caesar describes are obviously much more suited to the North Sea than Meditteranean galleys were, but whether they were suited to an Atlantic crossing or not is dubious. It's implausible that the Veneti were designing ships to make crossings. They were first and foremost traders, and if they had such rare commodities as they could get in the Americas, they would have been selling them all over Europe. Romans would certainly know about any unusual goods they were peddling, and Caesar wouldn't have failed to make note of it.

The Veneti vessels did have high gunwales and were equipped with sails, but that doesn't mean they weren't coasters - in the 10th century, the same region produced another type of sailing ship with high gunwales, the cog. Cogs were (until the 13th century or so) coasters and certainly were not capable of transoceanic voyages.

I tend to agree but still with your good information it is still inconclusive and it would take a greater study in which I do not have time. The author who brought this up in BC America was only giving an opinion and it does not mean I totally believed him but for me it was only his theory. I was only bringing up a maybe- a big one at that but maybe!! It is more likely they drifted to the New World by accident, caught in a storm etc
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 10:44

Good point. The kayaks of inuits are a lot more advanced that most of the bath tubs used by ancient Mediterranean and European peoples. In navigation, the Western civilization wasn't precisely the top one of the world, before the 15th century.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 04:08

Originally posted by eaglecap

I think you are right and if you have ever read "Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Caesar then you have read about the Celtic ships, on the Brittany coast, with their high prows which relied on wind vs. the Roman gallies which largely depended on oars and were coast huggers. I have read some articles and some believe these ships built by the Celts were capable of trans-Atlantic crossing, accidently or on purpose-???

These were the Veneti.

The ships Caesar describes are obviously much more suited to the North Sea than Meditteranean galleys were, but whether they were suited to an Atlantic crossing or not is dubious. It's implausible that the Veneti were designing ships to make crossings.  They were first and foremost traders, and if they had such rare commodities as they could get in the Americas, they would have been selling them all over Europe. Romans would certainly know about any unusual goods they were peddling, and Caesar wouldn't have failed to make note of it.

The Veneti vessels did have high gunwales and were equipped with sails, but that doesn't mean they weren't coasters - in the 10th century, the same region produced another type of sailing ship with high gunwales, the cog. Cogs were (until the 13th century or so) coasters and certainly were not capable of transoceanic voyages.

If a modern man can cross from North America to Europe in a boat the size of a bath tub then why couldn't they Celts have done the same thing?

Could and did are two different things. Technically speaking, a Celt could have walked to Thailand, bought or built a watercraft, crossed over to New Guinea, blown to Australia during a storm, and been the first European to discover it. It doesn't mean it happened. 

Also, alot of these modern 'boats the size of a bathtub' are far more seaworthy than ancient ships. Many of them are kayaks, which are built to be able to capsize and then right themselves again with no harm done.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 23:00
It is not inconclusive. Believing that Europeans (or Africans) came to the Americas before Leif Ericsson is like to believe in Santa Claus, people abducted by UFOs or the Second comming of Christ! There always will be people who believe on those things. However, there is not evidence whatosever to start to believe those contacts ever happened.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 22:40
Originally posted by pinguin

Ancient minoans in the Americas... what a wild fantasy. If it had happened we should had some records. Even after Thera exploded most civilization still survived... In the Americas there is no contact whatsoever of Europeans arriving to the Americas before Leif Ericsson.


However, there is evidence of Inuits arriving to Europe. We should better star by that...



I think we all agreed the evidence is inconclusive but I am always open to it; if I can be shown proof. Actually, after Thera erupted the Minoans (archaeological term) civilization did collaspe, invaded by the Greeks
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 20:43

Ancient minoans in the Americas... what a wild fantasy. If it had happened we should had some records. Even after Thera exploded most civilization still survived... In the Americas there is no contact whatsoever of Europeans arriving to the Americas before Leif Ericsson.

However, there is evidence of Inuits arriving to Europe. We should better star by that...
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by Flipper

Well under unique situations a ship could end up in the other side. Ships did dissappear as always and nobody new what happened. If any people landed in the Americas, o think they did understand what happened...That they made a very large trip of no return. So probably noone learned about the new continent. Even if this happened, they did not discover america first and as i said it could happen only under unique conditions. 


I think you are right and if you have ever read "Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Caesar then you have read about the Celtic ships, on the Brittany coast, with their high prows which relied on wind vs. the Roman gallies which largely depended on oars and were coast huggers. I have read some articles and some believe these ships built by the Celts were capable of trans-Atlantic crossing, accidently or on purpose-??? If a modern man can cross from North America to Europe in a boat the size of a bath tub then why couldn't they Celts have done the same thing? I see do not see conclusive proof yet but I am open. The Minoans were a maritime culture and it was their mighty navy which acted as a wall of protection, since most of their cities were not walled. If they had known about the land, we call the Americas, their records could have been destroyed after the eruption of Thera and the Mycenaean conquest. We know Linear A has not been deciphered so if it is not just itemized list of things like Linear B then maybe it could reveal such information to us about the land on the other side of the great sea. I hope someone deciphers it someday!! Maybe it might be someone on A&E --

This is interesting!


Edited by eaglecap - 05-Feb-2009 at 20:14
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 17:18
Well under unique situations a ship could end up in the other side. Ships did dissappear as always and nobody new what happened. If any people landed in the Americas, o think they did understand what happened...That they made a very large trip of no return. So probably noone learned about the new continent. Even if this happened, they did not discover america first and as i said it could happen only under unique conditions. 


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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 20:30
Originally posted by Flipper


Those things are hoax. I happened to meet an author of a book claiming such things once. He presented things enclosed in a nice way, in order to end up in a theory where all ancient civilizations came from America. He tryed to convince me, that the "real" Troy was hidden somewhere in America. Some inscriptions of people descending from the real Troad and other evidence, made him to run away without even commenting. LOL



flipper - I tend to agree a lot with you. A lot of what I have seen from magazines like Ancient America are a hoax. I have been to a lot of museums and even I can tell the photos they show of these so-called artifacts are a hoax. But, the artifacts I talked about were real artifacts from museums in Greece and the USA. I just think the similarity is interesting but like I said to piguin I am not totaly closed to such an idea. Evidence disspears fast so really it is hard to prove or disprove; very subjective!!
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