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"Beating" up on Israel?

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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 14:42
Hello Hebrew
 
Your argument above is quite dangerous.
 
From 1.2 million Israeli Arabs only a few dozen were ever implicated in aiding "terrorists", much smaller percentage than lets say UK citizens of Irish descent during the troubles. the UK didn't do a fraction of what Israel is doing right now to the Palestinians despite the large number of Brits killed during the troubles.
 
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 18:45
How can a State be secular, when all  it's national symbols are religious? How can a State be secular, when it's existence was meant to be a refuge for a group of people defined by specific religious bonds? How can a State be secular when it categorizes it's population with religious criteria ( Jews and others)?

Do i need to remind you the Law of Return????

Law of Return 5710-1950

Right of aliyah** 1. Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh**.

Oleh's visa 2. (a) Aliyah shall be by oleh's visa.

(b) An oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that the applicant

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or

(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

Oleh's certificate 3. (a) A Jew who has come to Israel and subsequent to his arrival has expressed his desire to settle in Israel may, while still in Israel, receive an oleh's certificate.

(b) The restrictions specified in section 2(b) shall apply also to the grant of an oleh's certificate, but a person shall not be regarded as endangering public health on account of an illness contracted after his arrival in Israel.

Residents and persons born in this country 4. Every Jew who has immigrated into this country before the coming into force of this Law, and every Jew who was born in this country, whether before or after the coming into force of this Law, shall be deemed to be a person who has come to this country as an oleh under this Law.

Implementation and regulations 5. The Minister of Immigration is charged with the implementation of this Law and may make regulations as to any matter relating to such implementation and also as to the grant of oleh's visas and oleh's certificates to minors up to the age of 18 years.



http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law%20of%20Return%205710-1950

How many times have i counted the term Jew? 5?
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  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 07:56
Originally posted by Spartakus


How many times have i counted the term Jew? 5?
 
you don't get it yet
 
Judaism is a national/ethnical/falklore/cultural identity ,and not only a religious one. a self cognative identity, of the Jewish people for the past thousends of years. holding nomerus differ strict characters.
 
so yes a Jew can be atheist as well.
 
sorry it does'nt work here as with Christianity and Islam.
 
 


Edited by Hebrewtext - 30-Jan-2009 at 07:58
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 08:13

A Jew can be atheist, but the criteria that the state of Israel uses for determing who is Jewish is religious, straight from rabbinic law. Meeting these religious criteria, although not necessarily practicing the religion, still defines your access to rights in that country (as noted above).



Edited by edgewaters - 30-Jan-2009 at 08:14
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  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 08:25
Originally posted by edgewaters

A Jew can be atheist, but the criteria that the state of Israel uses for determing who is Jewish is religious, straight from rabbinic law. Meeting these religious criteria, although not necessarily practicing the religion, still defines your access to rights in that country (as noted above).

 
 
false
 
one can prove only one of his grandparents was a Jew (easier from mother side), yes a Jew by rabbinic law though even not practicing the religion himself.
 
the moment he lands in Israel at the airport he gets full Israeli rights ,and government help(money,social sec. etc).
 
sorry that makes Israel very easy to immigrate to with the lightest immigration rules in the world.(even just to convert to Judaism).
 
if I land tommorow in Canada I will get nothing (it will take several years to get citizanship).
but if a Canadian born will land in Israel ,with only one Jewish grandparent , he will be Israeli citizen the same moment of arrival.
 
 


Edited by Hebrewtext - 30-Jan-2009 at 08:37
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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 08:52
What the hell you just reaffirmed what he said.
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 15:40
Not really Super Goat.  Hebrewtext never said that you had to be a practicing Jew to get full citizenship in Israel, what he said was that you had to have a Jewish grandparent.  In his hypothetical you don't know what religion the Canadian practices.  If he is Christian, he still gets full rights according to HT because he had one Jewish grandparent. 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 17:25
What if you fabricated evidence, convincing evidence that you had a Jewish granparent?
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 17:30
You do not know what an Israeli practices.

but,

You do know what a Jew practices, because he/she is a Jew. You cannot be a Jew and, at the same time, Christian or Muslim. Because Jew=Christian=Muslim=religious identity.

If the State of Israel was secular, it would use the term Israeli instead of Jew.


Edited by Spartakus - 30-Jan-2009 at 17:36
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 17:43
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

 
you don't get it yet
 
Judaism is a national/ethnical/falklore/cultural identity ,and not only a religious one. a self cognative identity, of the Jewish people for the past thousends of years. holding nomerus differ strict characters.
 
so yes a Jew can be atheist as well.
 
sorry it does'nt work here as with Christianity and Islam.
 
 


We do not discuss here about self-determination, but about how political culture and social structures interpret the term Jew. Yes, a Jew can be an atheist, but nothing else. Jews were nothing more than a religious-ethnic group. Only since the last century there is an effort to make them a nation.
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:11

Originally posted by Hebrewtext

sorry that makes Israel very easy to immigrate to with the lightest immigration rules in the world.(even just to convert to Judaism).

Bingo!

You can't get a pass on getting into Canada by converting to some religion. You have to qualify for citizenship and your race or religion doesn't matter even a little bit. In fact, the law makes it illegal for the government to discriminate at all based on such things. If an immigration officer gave someone a pass because their grandfather was white or Christian or something, he would be fired and charged with a human rights crime.

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  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:55
Originally posted by Bulldog

What if you fabricated evidence, convincing evidence that you had a Jewish granparent?
 
yes and some do this
 
let me estimate that some 20% of the Jews living in Israel are not 100% Jews, from both sides.
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  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:58
Originally posted by edgewaters

Bingo!

You can't get a pass on getting into Canada by converting to some religion. You have to qualify for citizenship and your race or religion doesn't matter even a little bit. In fact, the law makes it illegal for the government to discriminate at all based on such things. If an immigration officer gave someone a pass because their grandfather was white or Christian or something, he would be fired and charged with a human rights crime.

 
same here
 
also non Jews can get Israeli citizenship after several years and long process.
 
you know sunshine,beaches, hot girls attracts thousends of foriegners to live in Israel.


Edited by Hebrewtext - 30-Jan-2009 at 18:59
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

 
same here
Obviously not! Religious/ethnic discrimination is a fundamental aspect of the Israeli constitution, especially as regards immigration. 
also non Jews can get Israeli citizenship after several years and long process.

Yes, that's true. But the point is that you get a free pass if you conform to religious ideals that define what a Jew is. You get nothing in Canada just because you happen to be of some particular religion or ethnicity. Any immigration officer who was caught favouring some religion or ethnicity would be thrown in jail for human rights violations.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 05:27
HebrewText your just confirming what we have been saying all along. If you can show me a Jew that has converted to Islam and get the same treatment then i am totally wrongSmile.


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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:37
Originally posted by Spartakus

You do not know what an Israeli practices.

but,

You do know what a Jew practices, because he/she is a Jew. You cannot be a Jew and, at the same time, Christian or Muslim. Because Jew=Christian=Muslim=religious identity.

If the State of Israel was secular, it would use the term Israeli instead of Jew.
 
You can be a Christian Jew. In fact there are many of them around, forming quite a strong movement. Fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christian groups don't like them but they're there. And they have the same rights of return to Israel as any other Jew.
 
This emphasis on 'Jew' as a religious designation is one of the things I find sickening about much of this debate. I've known many Jews who weren't in the least Judaists, including Israeli citizens. And Hebrewtext is perfectly correct in everything he has been saying on this subject (whatever other disagreements we may have).
 
Of course Judaism is somewhat favoured in Israel, but nowhere near to the extent Christianity is de facto favoured in the USA or Islam is in most of the middle east states (including Hussein's rather secular Iraq - see article 4 of the 1990 constitution).
 
In fact outside the communist countries avowed non-believers would have some difficulty getting elected president, but it's been common in Israel.
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:42
Originally posted by Leonidas

HebrewText your just confirming what we have been saying all along. If you can show me a Jew that has converted to Islam and get the same treatment then i am totally wrongSmile.
 
As I understand it, a Jew that converts to Islam (or was born Muslim) will then be subject to the Islamic religious courts, not the Judaic ones, on matters like marriage and divorce. Status before the criminal courts, and citizenship, will not change.
 
That seems reasonable to me. If he/she believes in Islam, rhen presumbaly he/she will want to come under the Islamic religious courts, not the Judaic ones.
 
What is a little odd about the setup is that there are various kinds of Catholic/Orthodox denominations catered for, but not Protestants.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by Leonidas

HebrewText your just confirming what we have been saying all along. If you can show me a Jew that has converted to Islam and get the same treatment then i am totally wrongSmile.
 
 
As I understand it, a Jew that converts to Islam (or was born Muslim) will then be subject to the Islamic religious courts, not the Judaic ones, on matters like marriage and divorce. Status before the criminal courts, and citizenship, will not change.
 
That seems reasonable to me. If he/she believes in Islam, then presumably he/she will want to come under the Islamic religious courts, not the Judaic ones.
 
What is a little odd about the setup is that there are various kinds of Catholic/Orthodox denominations catered for, but not Protestants.


Edited by gcle2003 - 31-Jan-2009 at 12:56
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 13:46
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
You can be a Christian Jew. In fact there are many of them around, forming quite a strong movement. Fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christian groups don't like them but they're there.


You are still talking about self-determination. How people may determine themselves, not how they are determined by structures. The term Christian-Jew can be as absurd as  the term Christian-Muslim.

Originally posted by gcle2003


This emphasis on 'Jew' as a religious designation is one of the things I find sickening about much of this debate. I've known many Jews who weren't in the least Judaists, including Israeli citizens. And Hebrewtext is perfectly correct in everything he has been saying on this subject (whatever other disagreements we may have).


But it is a religious designation since Antiquity. The terms Israelite and Israeli are not, but Jew surely is.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003


Of course Judaism is somewhat favoured in Israel, but nowhere near to the extent Christianity is de facto favoured in the USA or Islam is in most of the middle east states (including Hussein's rather secular Iraq - see article 4 of the 1990 constitution).


I feel that you have completely ignored of what i have posted in the previous pages.



Edited by Spartakus - 31-Jan-2009 at 13:46
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 15:46
Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
You can be a Christian Jew. In fact there are many of them around, forming quite a strong movement. Fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christian groups don't like them but they're there.


You are still talking about self-determination.
Of course I am. It's the only sensible way to discuss it. A person's religion is determined by what he believes (or doesn't believe) and does (or doesn't do). It doesn't depend on anyone else's view of what he should be, or who his parents were and his associates are.
How people may determine themselves, not how they are determined by structures. The term Christian-Jew can be as absurd as  the term Christian-Muslim.
 
Only because you insist on treating 'Jew' as a religious designation, which it isn't. You can have Christian Arabs, Muslim Arabs and Judaic Arabs. You can have Christian Jews, Muslim Jews and Judaic Jews. What you can't have are Judaic Christians or Judaic Muslims or Christian Muslims.


Originally posted by gcle2003


This emphasis on 'Jew' as a religious designation is one of the things I find sickening about much of this debate. I've known many Jews who weren't in the least Judaists, including Israeli citizens. And Hebrewtext is perfectly correct in everything he has been saying on this subject (whatever other disagreements we may have).


But it is a religious designation since Antiquity. The terms Israelite and Israeli are not, but Jew surely is.
It has been misused that way, yes. In antiquity it simply meant an inhabitant of Judaea (not even of Israel). Taking it as a religious designation is as ignorant as assuming 'Arab' is a religious designation because most Arabs are Muslims.
 
I've never seen a textbook on philosophy that didn't, correctly, refer to Spinoza as a Jew. So how can it have been a religious designation?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003


Of course Judaism is somewhat favoured in Israel, but nowhere near to the extent Christianity is de facto favoured in the USA or Islam is in most of the middle east states (including Hussein's rather secular Iraq - see article 4 of the 1990 constitution).


I feel that you have completely ignored of what i have posted in the previous pages.
 
Where it was mistaken, yes.


Edited by gcle2003 - 31-Jan-2009 at 15:47
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