Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

"Beating" up on Israel?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 11>
Author
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:56
Originally posted by gcle2003

But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF.


That is incorrect. Palestinians citizens are not subject to mandatory service. Druze, Bedouin and a few other groups are sujbect to mandatory service, but not Palestinians.

"Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. Regarding the latter, for security reasons, Israeli Arabs generally were restricted from working in companies with defense contracts or in security-related fields." - 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices
 
Presented the way this is, British regulations about arranged marriages between British citizens and foreigners would sound pretty racist too.


Hmmmm ... does British law say that a black who marries a foreigner can't live with their family in Britain, but a white can?

Its one thing to discriminate against the foreign citizen in this equation, quite another to discriminate against the domestic citizen. In Israel, a Jew who marries a Palestinian can live with their family in Israel; an Arab or Palestinian Christian cannot.


Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jan-2009 at 17:01
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 16:57
Actually from what I have seen it is possible to marry someone non-American, and have them live here and work. Just got a lot more red tape than the usual.
Back to Top
Beylerbeyi View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Cuba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1355
  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 17:07
But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF.
He's right, Arabs don't serve in the military. Read wikipedia:
"Muslims are not required to serve in the Israeli military, and outside the Bedouin community, very few (around 120 a year) volunteer."
 
Presented the way this is, British regulations about arranged marriages between British citizens and foreigners would sound pretty racist too.
Maybe they are.

Let alone what the Soviet Union used to be like, where Russians who married foreigners were not allowed to either have the spouse come love with them, or go live with the spouse abroad.
That's not racist, because it applies to everyone based on citizenship. German and Israeli laws apply to Turks and Arabs respectively, but not to other people. So if you are French, then it's fine, you can marry, and your spouse can come over. If you are Turkish, oh sorry. I don't know about the British laws.
 
Even in the US, a Cypriot who marries an American woman, even though he is allowed to live there, is not allowed to take a job. (I mention a Cypriot, because that's a case I know about: I believe other nationalisties are treated the same way.)
I doubt that, since he will have US citizenship with marriage. I have many friends who married Americans and all work there fine.
 
Can someone tell me what the rules about citizenship are for Israeli Jews who marry Arab women and wish to live in the corresponding Arab country?
Irrelevant. Arabs are not running Jewish Bantustans.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 17:10
Originally posted by Bey


I doubt that, since he will have US citizenship with marriage. I have many friends who married Americans and all work there fine.


Same as I said. It is possible. Perhaps in some rare occasions it is not, but from cases I have seen none have had that problem.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 17:31
Hello to you all
 
Sorry but the net where I am is terrible I can't even logout.
 
Anyway I will respond to each point alone
 
First, Aster, dear dear Aster. Edge's response is good enough but I will add to it. First of all, to my knowledge, there hasn't been ANY Palestinian who advocated Holocaust or near it nor mass expulsion of jews from Israel, those new comers from Russia and the US maybe, but those who have been for generations, no.
 
On the other hand, there are elected politicians who are not shy of threatening a Holocaust, the commander of southern Israel military disctrict, Avigdor Lieberman and some members of Shas, Kahane and others. Some are actual ministers in the Israeli government and are hailed as democrats despite they are worse in their racist attitudes than David Duke or other white supremacists. You ask a question about the Palestinians who want to distroy Israel, the problem is the one who is doing the killings are the Israeli government. Last November, colonists went on rampage guarded by the Israeli government, killed some, kicked entire villages from their homes and occupied houses and farms that don't belong to them. Non were procecuted, non were even evicted from what they took. The Israeli government and the world for that matter was silent and no condemnation whatsoever. And you come here and think Israel has even a point?
 
As for you Graham, Well first of all none of the Arab countries went on an international crusade using their long arm and powerful lobbies to claim they are a democratic secular country with deep respect for human right, Israel did. Israel has two sets of laws, one for Arabs and the other for jews. Arab schools in the same school district are underfunded, overcrowded (seen a documentry where 40 kids were cramped in one classroom) and treated simply as if they don't exist while the jewish schools are better than some public schools in Britain with 15 student/class, state of the art labs, audetoriums and other fancy stuff. In that same documentry the town council, Arabs are about 35% of that town and not a single councillor was an Arab, the council refused to cover the Arab districs with sanitation except one and that was because 5 jewish families lived there out of about 200. Edge's post about rights is also a good way to start. Finally the Arabs are exempt from military service except for certain Bedouin tribes and the Druze who as I said earlier fought in 48 with the Jews and did more massacres against Palestinians than the Jewish groups in that war.
 
Finally, good post Bey.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:40
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

but I just wish that people had a little more of an open-minded view on this issue.


I wish that people did not continue to talk in this topic without taking the slightest consideration of what i said.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 20:54
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I sadly see that you missed my point completely when I wrote about 'actual' Turkey etc. That was a fantasy, there is no such thing in reality. What I have written is, according to you, if Turkey created this situation, i.e. called the South East 'territories' and revoked the Kurds' citizenship there, but allowed the Kurds in the rest of the country (there are 2 millions in Istanbul alone) to vote that would be OK, because that's exactly what Israel is doing in Palestine. If this happened I don't think you or anyone else would have called Turkey democratic. But you call Israel just that, because you are racists. 
 
I actually did not say it is OK (on the contrary I think it is far from being OK), and I have never said anything about Israel's democracy. But the point still  stands -- somebody said Palestinians have no right to vote -- this is not exactly true, part of them have.
 
I will excuse your silly "You are racist" remark -- apparently "You" means something more wide and important for your "klassenkampf" than my humble person Wink
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Graham,

you missed his point. Israel taxes the Palestinians in the occupied territories. As well as killing them and controlling other aspects of their lives. But gives them no rights whatsoever. It is blatant apartheid.

 

Israel collects taxes and import duties for all goods coming into Israel and the Palestinian territories under a customs agreement. It is then supposed to pass the part belonging to the Palestinians — roughly $45 million to $50 million a month after deductions for Israeli-supplied water and electricity — to the Palestinian Authority.

.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 21:59
Here is the sotuation with tax collections:
.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 15:23
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by gcle2003

But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF.


That is incorrect. Palestinians citizens are not subject to mandatory service. Druze, Bedouin and a few other groups are sujbect to mandatory service, but not Palestinians.
What I actually wrote was: "But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF."
 
What you now say doesn't actually contradict that, and the link you gave confirms what I said: Arabs do serve in the IDF, though they are only required (as opposed to allowed) to serve, if they are Druze, Bedouin or whatever. Aren't the Druze and the Bedouin considered Palestinians, or Arabs?
 
Presented the way this is, British regulations about arranged marriages between British citizens and foreigners would sound pretty racist too.


Hmmmm ... does British law say that a black who marries a foreigner can't live with their family in Britain, but a white can?
Not directly, but they are deliberately an overtly set up in order to limit such immirgation from countries where arranged marriages are common.
 
That doesn't mean Australia or New Zealand.
 
Which is why I indicated it depends how you present it. One way it looks racist, the other way it looks like a sensible precaution against abuse.

Its one thing to discriminate against the foreign citizen in this equation, quite another to discriminate against the domestic citizen. In Israel, a Jew who marries a Palestinian can live with their family in Israel; an Arab or Palestinian Christian cannot.
Are you saying that if an 'Arab' citizen of Israel who marries another 'Arab' citizen they both have to leave the country? If you are I don't believe you. The law is to stop non-citizens from acquiring citizenship or residential rights through marriage, which is quite a common, if unfortunate,  situation in the world.


Edited by gcle2003 - 24-Jan-2009 at 15:24
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 15:41
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

But you're wrong, certainly to say they are not allowed to serve in the military. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel are subject to conscription to the IDF.
He's right, Arabs don't serve in the military. Read wikipedia:
"Muslims are not required to serve in the Israeli military, and outside the Bedouin community, very few (around 120 a year) volunteer."
Also from wikpedia: "National military service is mandatory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over". The link Edgwaters gave acepted that 'Arabs' do serve in the IDF, though they're not required to. And 'Jewish' in there does not refer to Judaic Jews. In fact all the miscellaneous members of the Israeli citizenry are required to serve, irrespective of their religious belief (That's not quite right: seriously religious orthodox Jews are actually exempt from service.)
 
Try http://www.scribd.com/doc/519294/Israeli-Defense-Forces- and sroll down to 'Minorities in the IDF'. It's a special viewer thingy that I don't know how to copy and paste from.
 
Presented the way this is, British regulations about arranged marriages between British citizens and foreigners would sound pretty racist too.
Maybe they are.

Let alone what the Soviet Union used to be like, where Russians who married foreigners were not allowed to either have the spouse come love with them, or go live with the spouse abroad.
That's not racist, because it applies to everyone based on citizenship. German and Israeli laws apply to Turks and Arabs respectively, but not to other people. So if you are French, then it's fine, you can marry, and your spouse can come over. If you are Turkish, oh sorry. I don't know about the British laws.
See my oher post on it. Somewhere I also mentioned the German law of return.
 
Even in the US, a Cypriot who marries an American woman, even though he is allowed to live there, is not allowed to take a job. (I mention a Cypriot, because that's a case I know about: I believe other nationalisties are treated the same way.)
I doubt that, since he will have US citizenship with marriage. I have many friends who married Americans and all work there fine.
He certainly won't automatically get US citizenship. I actually have a son married to an American. He gets automatic right of residence, as I said, but to work there he had to get a green card: since he works at a fairly senior level with IBM - and he's English - this wasn't difficult to fix. Cool It's still only his green card, not his marriage, that entitles him to take a job there.
 
(A quirk of US law does mean that a spouse may be entitled to finance and start up a business, but not work as an employee. In any case that's also easier whether you're married or not.)
 
Can someone tell me what the rules about citizenship are for Israeli Jews who marry Arab women and wish to live in the corresponding Arab country?
Irrelevant. Arabs are not running Jewish Bantustans.
Irrelevant to what? It was a genuine question.  Something about mores and beams?
 
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 22:48
Originally posted by gcle2003

Aren't the Druze and the Bedouin considered Palestinians, or Arabs?


Bedouin are not considered Palestinians.

I think the Druze may be, but they are even more hawkish towards the Muslims than the Jews are, and in Lebanon were involved in incidents like the mass slaughter of refugee camps etc.


Not directly, but they are deliberately an overtly set up in order to limit such immirgation from countries where arranged marriages are common.


This makes no sense. A kind of arranged marriage is practiced by traditional Jews in Israel, called shidduch.

Furthermore, the Israeli law applies whether the marriage is arranged or not, and it isn't even limited to spouses. A Palestinian who is an Israeli citizen cannot bring his children in the West Bank to live with him, even if the marriage in which they were conceived had been dissolved. Children under 12 are exempt, but a 13 year old would fall under the law.

Are you saying that if an 'Arab' citizen of Israel who marries another 'Arab' citizen they both have to leave the country?


Precisely. Well, they don't have to leave necessarily, they could choose to not live together as husband and wife. It's more like "Your family, or your home."

If you are I don't believe you.


Would it strongly challenge your position on Israel? Does it not accord with what you believe about Israel?

If so ... will you revise your position if I can prove it to you?


Edited by edgewaters - 25-Jan-2009 at 01:42
Back to Top
Beylerbeyi View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Cuba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1355
  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 11:09

Israel collects taxes and import duties for all goods coming into Israel and the Palestinian territories under a customs agreement. It is then supposed to pass the part belonging to the Palestinians — roughly $45 million to $50 million a month after deductions for Israeli-supplied water and electricity — to the Palestinian Authority.

'Customs agreement' my ass. There was no 'agreement'. Only terms forced by Israel and the West. They control everything. As you write Israel is then 'supposed to' pass the money to the Palestinian Authority. In fact, it passes the money on only if they do what they tell them to do.     

I will excuse your silly "You are racist" remark -- apparently "You" means something more wide and important for your "klassenkampf" than my humble person Wink

My remark is for all those who call Israel 'a democracy'. If you think it is a democracy, then it applies to you as well. If you don't, well sorry, but the English language does not discriminate between plural and singular in first person any more. 

Also from wikpedia: "National military service is mandatory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over". The link Edgwaters gave acepted that 'Arabs' do serve in the IDF, though they're not required to. And 'Jewish' in there does not refer to Judaic Jews. In fact all the miscellaneous members of the Israeli citizenry are required to serve, irrespective of their religious belief (That's not quite right: seriously religious orthodox Jews are actually exempt from service.)

Come on Graham. You know who I am talking about when I say the Arabs. And no amount of IDF propaganda will change the fact that Arabs are not required to serve. I already knew it from an Israeli friend of mine without looking at the Wikipedia or reading Egdewaters. Ask any Israeli they will all tell you this. There is no need to be 'more of a royalist than the King himself'.  

See my oher post on it. Somewhere I also mentioned the German law of return.

I was not talking about the German law of return (it is also racist). I say just pass these laws for the Israelis too, not just of Arabs or Turks or Pakistanis. Then I will believe in liberal, enlightened Europe.

Irrelevant to what? It was a genuine question.  Something about mores and beams?

? The question we are discussing is not the laws regulating marriage in the Middle East. The question is Israeli institutional racism and the way the Palestinians are treated there. So your coment is irrelevant. We don't care what the Arab laws say, because 
a. they do not run Jewish bantustans, and 
b. nobody calls them 'democratic'.

Typical Western liberal approach: applying some high moral criteria to a situation without taking the context into account: who is the aggressor, who is the defender,  who is the oppressor, who is the oppressed, who is powerful,  who is weak? Does not matter for the liberal. Hamas killed 1 child, Israel killed 100, they are the same... In fact Israel is better because they pretend to be sorry...   
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 14:20
Originally posted by edgewaters


Not directly, but they are deliberately an overtly set up in order to limit such immirgation from countries where arranged marriages are common.


This makes no sense. A kind of arranged marriage is practiced by traditional Jews in Israel, called shidduch.
If a Jewish girl living in Britain married an Israeli (or any other foreign) Jew in such a situation, the husband would very likely not get permission to reside in Britain.
 
I don't see why this makes no sense. The idea is to stop trafficking in women, and using them just to gain residence in the country.


Furthermore, the Israeli law applies whether the marriage is arranged or not, and it isn't even limited to spouses. A Palestinian who is an Israeli citizen cannot bring his children in the West Bank to live with him, even if the marriage in which they were conceived had been dissolved. Children under 12 are exempt, but a 13 year old would fall under the law.
I'm not saying I approve of that, but it's true in Britain too they wouldn't be able to gain residency (automatically) if they were over 18. If the children are brought to Israel under 12, can they then stay past 13?

Are you saying that if an 'Arab' citizen of Israel who marries another 'Arab' citizen they both have to leave the country?


Precisely. Well, they don't have to leave necessarily, they could choose to not live together as husband and wife. It's more like "Your family, or your home."
I'd like something more authoritative on that point. Two Israeli citizens have to leave the country if they get married?
 
I thought the situation was as decribed here:
Aneesa's problem stems from the decision by Israel's parliament to pass a new law in July, which prevents Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip who marrying fellow Palestinians, whom the Israeli state had ethnically defined as 'Arab Israeli's', from obtaining residency permits and/or citizenship in Israel. Under the new law, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

This means that 'Arab Israelis', who make up about 20% of the population of Israel, who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the Occupied Territories, or live apart from their husband or wife, as is the case with Aneesa.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-dadoo121103.htm

If you are I don't believe you.


Would it strongly challenge your position on Israel? Does it not accord with what you believe about Israel?

If so ... will you revise your position if I can prove it to you?
It's not a question of what I 'believe' about Israel, it's aout what even the anti-Israeli sites claim. I'm sure that if it was the case, sites like the one I quoted above would say so.
 
Since I'm not pro-Israel in the first place (what I've been mostly doing here is criticising the Palestinian side, since I'm not pro-Palestinian either, and they seem over represented) it isn't likely to change my views much. In general I disapprove of restrictions on marriage, including between homosexuals.
 
I do however far prefer the Israeli attitude to homosexuality and women's rights to what I understand to be the Hamas position. (And I mean the Israeli attitude, not some dug up old Jewish fundamentalist position.)


Edited by gcle2003 - 26-Jan-2009 at 14:21
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 14:49
Originally posted by Kevin

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the trend in many Western societies where it seems "cool" to gang on Israel in terms of political and intellectual discussion and discourse, I've noticed more recently in the United States also.                     
 
Well, people usually reacts badly to massacres. That's all.
The state of Israel seem to have a free ride in punishing and killing Palestineans at will, and that is a bit disgusting for the people that witness those actions.
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Beylerbeyi View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Cuba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1355
  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 15:43
Graham, Israel also does not even have civil marriage or divorce rights for women.

Comparing Hamas to Israel is wrong as I have written, but if they would follow Islamic law Muslim women can get divorces. Jewish women in Israel can't: 

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 16:33
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Graham, Israel also does not even have civil marriage or divorce rights for women.
As I recall, Cyprus used to get a lot of business conducting civil marriages for Israelis, which are then recgnised in Israel (Cyprus just because it's close, cheap and neutral). Apparently they still do: http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2008/2008-01/200801-Cyprus.html
Forty percent of our weddings are Israelis marrying Israelis,” he explains. “Twenty percent are Arab, with three-quarters of those being Lebanese and the remaining, Egyptian or Syrian.” A fifth of Cypriot civil marriages involve Western Europeans, half of them Europeans marrying Cypriots and the rest are Cypriots marrying Cypriots. 
I have no idea why Israel at the moment doesn't have civil marriage, but it certainly recognises them, and any subsequent divorces - what Cyprus has joined together Cyprus can put asunder....
 
Of course if people want religious marriages, they have to put up with religious marriage laws. That goes for Muslims and Christians, notably Roman Catholics,  too, outside Isarel let alone iin it, where all the major religions (except Protestants, oddly) have their own religious courts with jurisdiction over marriage.
 
In any case the situation is somewhat in flux: http://www.forward.com/articles/11247/ 
Comparing Hamas to Israel is wrong as I have written, but if they would follow Islamic law Muslim women can get divorces. Jewish women in Israel can't:
What's wrong is the insistence on religious rule. Comparing different religions isn't the point. I agree that such matters should be subject to secular jurisdiction, but look a litte eastward for some idea of what life might be lioke in a Hamas state.
 
In Jordan also there are no civil marriages, and marriage, divorce, inheritance and so on are all under the sole authority of the religious courts. And there's no punishment for apostasy in Israel, as there is in Jordan and elsewhere.
Originally posted by US State Department

There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the reporting period. A convert from Islam to Christianity was detained on the orders of a Shari'a court in September 2004 and charged with apostasy. In November, the Amman Shari'a Court found him guilty of apostasy, stripped him of his civil rights, and annulled his marriage. A Shari'a appellate court upheld the conviction in January 2005. Members of unrecognized religious groups and converts from Islam face legal discrimination and bureaucratic difficulties in personal status cases. Converts from Islam additionally risk the loss of civil rights. There is no statute that expressly forbids proselytizing Muslims. However, Shari'a courts have the authority to prosecute proselytizers.
 
Kettles, pots, motes, beams....pretty well the whole middle east has been backsliding into religious medievalism for the last thirty-odd years.
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88
  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 12:08
 
Israel is a secular liberal democratic nation , a hint for that can be found in the chart below.
 
some of you bring here all kinds of Israeli laws ,regulations  based  on rumors and half truth, I don't wan't even to get to each false claim. anyhow it doesn't matter Israel de facto is more secular/liberal than the US or Canada.
 
 
just remember the Israeli Arab identify and sympathize with Israel enemies , with recent history of conflict and war against it, hostility and terror by some of them against the state .with that background they are treated very well,
 what your country would do at time of war?
(locking them behind bars as for German and Japanies descendes in the US and Australia during WW2).
 

http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/



Edited by Hebrewtext - 28-Jan-2009 at 12:17
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 19:43
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

 
Israel is a secular liberal democratic nation , a hint for that can be found in the chart below.

 anyhow it doesn't matter Israel de facto is more secular/liberal than the US or Canada.


LOLLOLLOLLOL Sorry dude i just cannot help it...LOLLOLLOLLOL
 

Originally posted by Hebrewtext


 
some of you bring here all kinds of Israeli laws ,regulations  based  on rumors and half truth, I don't wan't even to get to each false claim.


Why don't you? This is the purpose of debating in this forum after all. To participate in a discussion, to present your opinion, to justify it and to counter-argue when you think that sth is wrong. We are not supposed to do monologues.


Edited by Spartakus - 28-Jan-2009 at 19:44
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88
  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 13:05
another hint :secular/wealth countries chart
 
 
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.