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"Beating" up on Israel?

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 21:55
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone was advocating the type of apathy that has allowed this situation to get worse over the past several decades. In fact I think this apathy is a natural result of the angry propaganda that often permeates the discussion. If I get accused of being a militant supporter or sympathizer of Israel every time I try to argue for making a more objective analysis of the situation, of course it turns me off to the debate, precisely because I recognize that nothing substantive can be accomplished or resolved in such a dynamic. I think we can all agree that the overwhelming majority of the discussion of the conflict on this forum has not been productive.
 
-Akolouthos
 
 
So what's happening there, what does your analysis suggest? I would say that if Arabs wouldn't start the war in 1948 and/or Jews would stick to the territories according to UN plan after their victory the situation now would be more peacefull.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 22:07

Originally posted by Flipper

My question right now is...WHY?

Why use weapons that can randomly harm anyone and that are less effective if you want to target Hamas?

Look at this video and tell me if you have an answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k

I heard that Israelis targets are not only Hamas people but also infrastructure and importantly some underground roots connecting Egypt with Gaza which help importing weapons etc.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 10:12
^ as for the tunnels they wouldn't of been so important if Gaza wasn't under siege. A huge amount of needed supplies also went under them, other than weapons. not that Gazan's shouldnt get weapons. 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 21:06

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by Anton

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?



Not stockade people in tents for 3 generations for starters
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Leonidas

^ as for the tunnels they wouldn't of been so important if Gaza wasn't under siege. A huge amount of needed supplies also went under them, other than weapons. not that Gazan's shouldnt get weapons. 


Yup. And water has been cut off for close to two weeks. Jon Stewart had a good segment regarding the siege a couple of shows ago. About the only main stream critique about Israel's wrong doing... in the US that is.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 10:09
Originally posted by Anton

Do you think that Gaza blockade is just a jewish caprice? What would YOU do if you were in their shoes?

Yes it is. This 'they have no choice' type lines is rubbish

 Talk to however they elect, look for exit strategy for expansion and a real settlement. Hamas has to be talked to there is no other way, the hard line position of Israel indulged by the neo cons did nothing but punish the people for voting agianst their wish. This war has done nothing but damage Israel's image, much in the same way as those terrible suicide bombers harmed the Palestinian cause. The plucky little victim that fought the aggressors is a lost and forgotten image the Israeli's have now gave up in pursuit for total domination over their neighbours.

.... you cant build a wall around the Palestinians (mainly very poor refugees already!), deny them basic necessities, humiliate them at check points and arbitrary evictions/confiscations (over a long period of time) and then be surprised they have become more radicalized over a generation. WTF

What could you do?
1. pursue the same same, and know your just going to fight it out until one of you is no more or
2.  exit those very policies and start compensation, fence mending. Knowing that there will still be blood shed but in the long term, and with patience, the radicals will lose that enemy to fight.



Edited by Leonidas - 20-Jan-2009 at 10:12
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 11:34
Israeli leaders believe that all of Palestine belongs to them. And Hamas believes all of Palestive belongs to them. Still, Israel refuses to talk to Hamas (elected representative of the Palestinians), saying that it does not believe in 'Israel's right to exist', and US and EU unconditionally support them. 

Hamas already says that it is willing to make long term truce and leave the matter to later generations, based on 67 borders. Other Arab states also said that they will recognise Israel if they retreat to 67 borders. UN resolutions say Israel should return to 67 borders. Even the US and and the EU say that Israel should return to 67 borders. Many within Israel itself want a return to 67 borders. 

However, Israeli leadership has demonstrated that it has no intention of returning to the 67 borders, and thus no interest in making peace, and Palestinians know this and that is why they support whomever resists them. Yesterday it was Arafat, today it is Hamas. 

It is, in fact, very easy to bring peace to Palestine. UN Security Council passes a resolution calling for economic sanctions against Israel if Israel does not immediately freeze settlement expansion, and return to 67 borders, say, within five years. In return Arab states will diplomatically recognise Israel. All it takes for this to pass is to have an American President who will not veto it. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen. 


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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2009 at 14:27
Hello to you all
 
Actually Bey racists like Avigdore Lieberman are hailed as "heroes of freedom" and "responsible elected politicians" and the best joke of them all "men of peace" despite he not only called for stripping Israel's Arab citizens of their civil liberties but even kick them out of their own lands and transfering the entire Arab population of Palestine out of the country.
 
One of the reasons why the US/EU doesn't recognise Hamas is that "they don't recognize Israel's right to exist". The problem is Israeli politicians who don't believe in the Palestinian right to live, not a joke, are given the red carpet treatment.
 
As for your comment Anton, the cleansing of Palestinians living in whats is now Israel began BEFORE the war of 48 started (since early 47 actually). The war in 48 was a reaction on the worlds silence. 
 
As for what happened, read my post a few pages back, Israel didn't attack "terrorist infrastructure", it attacked everything. The rockets are fired most from open ground, and Hamas released many footages to prove that. Israel attacked all Gaza hospital, the harbour, which hasn't been opened for 4 years, hundreds of schools and literally distroyed all the farms of Northern Gaza. Hardly Hamas infrastructure.
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 09:57
^ since HAMAS is the authority the social infrastructure is HAMAS as far as isreal is concerned. It gets a bit perverse as Israel wont recognise them in that role. Either way they dress it up as an attack on Hamas which is like bombing the water, power, schoolling of the USA and claiming to attack the Democrats.

'We will take down everything they can rule and adminster you with, anything that you may need which makes them legit in that way, but it really between us and them - meh maybe a bit of retribution for voting them in too'
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 11:04
In my opinion, the one real problem is that Israel refuses to behave according to its nature.

Basically, today's Israelis are colons and heirs of colons who try to escape from the post-colonial fate of their country. In other words, when you colonize a land, if you don't simply massacre all the previous inhabitants, you are going to have to deal with them.

Imagine the state South Africa would be in if the Whites insisted on having a separate state. I mean of course there would be rockets from Soweto falling all over their territory. Expecting Gaza to behave as any other country in the world is the same as granting independence to South LA and then wondering why it is not an example of economic development and pacific democracy.

As odd as it may seem, I think that Arab nationalists should support the idea of a Great Israel. There is already 4 millions Palestinians now, plus a million Israeli Muslims, plus a number of potential "returnees" from around the world. As Israel would be forced to grant them the right to vote... Hamas may rule Tel Aviv within a few years.

The One Big Israel solution is damn better than the flawed so-called Two States solution.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 11:16
Has anybody wondered when Hezbollah was created? In 1982, during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
Has anybody wondered how Hamas popped up as a major organization? Thanks to the American-Israeli favouring, who saw Hamas as a better option than the left-leaning and anti-American Fatah, during the late 80s and early 90s.

Hamas and Hezbollah are nothing more than a symptom of the situation. The problem is not tactical, that is who throws rockets first and to whom, but deeply political. The blatant truth is that Israel still obstructs the creation of an Arab State in Palestine, in spite of the UN partition plan, who clearly defined the creation of 2 States in the region.



http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-181(II)/page_3

In addition to that, the State of Israel treats the Palestinians as the Apartheid the Blacks, violating their most basic human rights.Unless it really tries to find a solution,guerilla  organizations will simply continue to pop up.


Edited by Spartakus - 21-Jan-2009 at 11:18
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 12:31
As odd as it may seem, I think that Arab nationalists should support the idea of a Great Israel. There is already 4 millions Palestinians now, plus a million Israeli Muslims, plus a number of potential "returnees" from around the world. As Israel would be forced to grant them the right to vote... Hamas may rule Tel Aviv within a few years.

The One Big Israel solution is damn better than the flawed so-called Two States solution.

Actually there are people on both sides who support a One State Solution. They are not Arab nationalists. Most prominent figure that I know is the famous Israeli historian Ilan Pappe. They want one secular Palestine and equality for all. In other words a modern civilised state.

I think it is a an obvious and noble goal, but it may not be achieveable in the short run. I think in the beginning there should be two entitites and peace. They should later merge into one.

As to 'isrealis have to give the Arabs voting rights', no they don't. They haven't in the last 40 years why would they now? They are setting up the Bantustans already.

Imagine Turkey declaring parts of the the Kurdish south-east 'territories', revoking the political rights of Kurds who live there, keeping its control on all aspects of their governance, sets up checkpoints (there are many already) and curfews everywhere and bombs the cities whenever they shoot someone... What do you reckon, would the a-holes (i.e. including most EU conservatives) in the West who call Israel a 'democracy' then accept that Turkey is one as well? 

US used to call South Africa a democracy and Nelson mandela a 'terrorist'. Today they call Israel a 'democracy'. So I say that's Western so-called 'democracy', 'rule of the white (or 'honorary white') master race'.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:52
As far as I know, quite a few Arabs who live in the actual territory of Israel have Israeli citizenship and vote for Israeli parlament.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:03
Hello to you all
 
Actually most Palestinians at one point didn't have a problem with one state and so did many Israelis. The problem is that even if 99.99% of the Palestinians and Jews living in the area voted for a unified democratic secular state, people in the US will oppose it and will force a two state solution, one "jewish" and the other Arab.
 
Personally I wish this happen, a unified state that is, but it won't.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:31
A unified state would be the best compromise, but the current government of Isreal rather keeps their legitimacy on the whole Isreal religious structure rather than on a unified state idea. Also there needs to be a lot of healing and change of ideology by both sides due to the last sixty years to make that happen. 
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 00:00
I really doubt that a unified State could become a reality.

 The Israeli State is created based on Jewish identity. You can see that in , virtually, every aspect of it. It's flag has the pentacle, it's Coat of Arms has the menorah, the calendar used is the Jewish one.

Symbols of the State of Israel
Description of the Present-Day Situation
Israel's symbols are its flag, the seal or emblem of the state,and the national anthem, Hatikva. The flag consists in two horizontal stripes and the Star of David between them, all  in light-blue on a white background. The two stripes are intended to recall the Talit, or prayer shawl; the Star of David, or David's Shield, has served as a Jewish symbol since as early as the seventh century BCE (Kashani 1998). The emblem is also blue and white, and depicts the menorah (candelabrum) from the ancient temple in Jerusalem surrounded by an olive branch on either side; all this above the word "Israel" in Hebrew. The national anthem describes the millenia-old Jewish hope of freedom and return to the homeland.

The national days of rest in Israel correspond to the major Jewish holidays: Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, the first and last days of Sukkot (Tabernacles) and Passover, and Shavuot (Pentecost). Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, is the national day of rest. Non-Jews have the right to observe their own holidays according to their customs.
Israel's two official languages are Hebrew and Arabic, and all ordinances, official government forms and documents must be presented in both languages. The state broadcasts radio and television news in both languages, and a Member of Knesset may address the plenum in either language. The educational system is divided as well, with some schools taught in Arabic, and other schools taught in Hebrew.
..........................
Symbols, anthem, and holidays.
The symbols, holidays, and anthem of the State of Israel represent Jewish history, culture, and Zionist ideology.
............................
The symbols are exclusive, representing the majority and not the minority.

 


http://www.cfisrael.org//a159.html?rsID=26

 Have a look at the Statistical Abstract of Israel ( http://www1.cbs.gov.il/reader/).Click on the SOURCES OF POPULATION GROWTH, BY DISTRICT,
POPULATION GROUP AND RELIGION
, for example. You'll see that, although there is a distinct categorization for RELIGION, the POPULATION GROUP categorization is also compiled with religious criteria for the Jews.


POPULATION GROUP קבוצת אוכלוסייה
.........................................

JEWS AND OTHERS(6) (6) יהודים ואח

.........................................

ARABS(5) (5) ערבים
...........................................


In all these Statistics, Palestine is stated as Judea and Samaria.

The State of Israel was not meant to be a multi-cultural, but a Jewish one. And the question is: Does the Israeli State has the will to fully integrate Palestinians , risking to lose it's Jewish character? When taking under consideration that the whole point behind the creation of Israel was the creation of a Jewish State , a Jewish Heaven where Jews from around the world could seek refuge?
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 10:11
One state solution is a pipe dream, a good one, but nothing more in todays environment. You will need to get the 2 state solution working first, in peace and within 1 maybe 2 generations both sides should see the practicalities (greater good) of it.

Cant see why Lebanon shouldn't be considered a part of the same greater nation.



Edited by Leonidas - 22-Jan-2009 at 10:13
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 11:44
As far as I know, quite a few Arabs who live in the actual territory of Israel have Israeli citizenship and vote for Israeli parlament.
Israel has been controlling the whole of Palestine for 40 years. All of that land is de facto (i.e. actual) Israeli land.  

When Turkey declares the South East are 'territories', and abolish the  rights of the Kurds, Kurds in rest of Turkey will retain their voting rights. According to you that will be OK, right? Because the Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey will still have their rights.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:28
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

When Turkey declares the South East are 'territories', and abolish the  rights of the Kurds, Kurds in rest of Turkey will retain their voting rights. According to you that will be OK, right? Because the Kurds in the 'actual land' of Turkey will still have their rights.
 
I did not say it's OK. Anyway, how many Kurds live in "actual Turkey"? :)
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