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"Beating" up on Israel?

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Beating" up on Israel?
    Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 21:31
My question right now is...WHY?

Why use weapons that can randomly harm anyone and that are less effective if you want to target Hamas?

Look at this video and tell me if you have an answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFq_CgqT8k


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  Quote Dream208 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 22:58

This might a dangerous question to raise:

 

How do we define who's innocent and who's not when one party is systematically oppressed/exploited another? In that kind of situation, the party that is being oppressed will consider entire population of the oppressing party's innocence revoked, since it is on the oppressed party's suffering that the people of oppressing party enjoys their lives.

 

To understand the violence, especially kind of violence that aims toward both 'civilians' and 'military' targets, we need to first understand what kind of sentimental complex such violence grows up from.

 
And from history we learned that the cycle of hatred will only cease in two scenarios: 1. The complete annihilation of one side, up to the last children. 2. The gradual reconciliation that becomes only possible when people were given time and chances to forget the past, or at least to distant themselves from it.

 

The current cycle of hatred in Gaza arises from the systematic oppression from Israel to Palestine, and Israel had done little to change such oppressive circumstance. If they wished this invasion would end this conflict for good, they better wished that there would be no Palestine left to remember their sufferings after this war. Of course, this will only put Israel into shoes of those who committed crimes of similar nature on them a little more than a half of century ago.

 

 

Again, sorry about my English.



Edited by Dream208 - 12-Jan-2009 at 23:00
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:26
Originally posted by gcle2003

As was fairly obvious to the normal person I accidentally sent two empty messages, just quoting someone else without replying. I also sent the two messages with replies. I've now deleted the two empty ones, which I hadn't seen before, and agree of course that they were redundant.


While this is a nice excuse, it does not explain why each of the redundant posts quoted a different message in addition to a third that contained only a single line of your own work which stated you were quoting someone.


Regardless, back to the topic at hand. I agree with dream that the current engagement is not going to halt rocket attacks. In the end it is only going to fuel the hatred of the Palestinians and likely result in more attacks over the long-run. Short of planting a nuclear weapon in the West Bank Israel is not going to end the rocket attacks.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:49
Dream208, your english is just fine. :)
My main question is why using weapons that are known to harm civilians? A phosrphorus bomb won't kill Hamas members. Maybe it will kill some, but with them a much larger amount of innocent people with join them. Cluster bombs, phosphor bombs etc are known to be cruel to civilians.



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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 23:55
Zaitsev, it's not in your entitlement to be confronting people's posts. If you have a problem with someone then bring it up with a mod or admin. I don't know if you have something against gcle, but if there are problems there are much more mature ways to handle them instead of pointing a problem out and in a confrontational manner put a clapping emotcon.
 
If your going to say it wasn't confrontational, it can be viewed as it easily as it's still bad taste.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 00:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYNLXYLM44c&feature=channel_page

Interesting... quite the man.... But I wonder, would he made this same statement had he won the nomination?


Edited by Theodore Felix - 13-Jan-2009 at 00:42
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 00:56
Originally posted by Flipper

Dream208, your english is just fine. :)
My main question is why using weapons that are known to harm civilians? A phosrphorus bomb won't kill Hamas members. Maybe it will kill some, but with them a much larger amount of innocent people with join them. Cluster bombs, phosphor bombs etc are known to be cruel to civilians.



...because they don't seem to give a ---- if it does ...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 06:57
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Zaitsev, it's not in your entitlement to be confronting people's posts. If you have a problem with someone then bring it up with a mod or admin. I don't know if you have something against gcle, but if there are problems there are much more mature ways to handle them instead of pointing a problem out and in a confrontational manner put a clapping emotcon.
 
If your going to say it wasn't confrontational, it can be viewed as it easily as it's still bad taste.


SearchAndDestroy, what you say may or may not be true, but you seem to be doing the exact same thing. Could we please make the tiniest bit of effort to keep this on-topic and reduce the spam?

Now, once again, back to the topic of the thread. Personally I view Israel's strategy, including the use of cluster and incendiary munitions, as a sledge-hammer approach rather than a surgical 'scalpel'. The simple fact is that if they kill off 90% of the population they'll likely kill off at least 20% of the terrorists. Besides, children are just future terrorists right and the women are terrorist production factories right?
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 12:22
why? es_bih covered it succintly. They do not value Palestinian lives, if they did they would let food and medicine in looong before this flared up. Either way they will use whatever advantage they can to protect their own lives in battle regardless of the civilians. 

You cannot have 'surgical' strikes in a places like Gaza and not hurt a massive amount of innocent people, its like bombing Sydney or New York to get to the police force and saying 'we are doing our best to minimise deaths'....
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 12:46
Originally posted by King John

   By the way all the coverage I have seen on US Media places Palestinian stories first and Israeli stories second.  An example of this would be CNN, on this channel one gets reporting like 400+ PALESTINAINS DEAD... ...Palestinians are still launching missiles.  This is hardly coverage skewed towards Israel, the first thing is always Palestinians being invaded and killed followed by a small parenthetical aside about Israel still being attacked.  I would say coverage in this manner shows the trend about which Parnell has spoken.
well yeah but are how many stories;
  •  is Hamas simply passed off as a terrorist organisation, that wants to destroy Israel? aggressor
  •  is Israel reported as defending itself even if its judge heavey handed?defender
  • not enough has been said of the humanitarian distaster that precded this current round, context to those rockets
  • not enough questions about why the US or Isreal could not accept and in fact isolated a democratically elected party, like them or not.
In fact Isreal/US calls them autocratic and has refused to talk all along, the irony.... Double standards on democracy, and a naked attempt at picking corrupt puppets against the palistinian will. What do they expect, to do...wheeling in Abbas to make peace in gaza? pff. where has the responsbility in the build up to this been discussed? nup 'just rockets have landed we must defend ourselves'

I could keep going....there are soo many more subtle biases, that make those headline (and very reportable) casualty numbers a phyrric victory a for palistinian point of view to ever get across.

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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 01:50
Originally posted by Zaitsev


SearchAndDestroy, what you say may or may not be true, but you seem to be doing the exact same thing. Could we please make the tiniest bit of effort to keep this on-topic and reduce the spam?
 
Zaitsev, read the CoC - and if you again, in your infinite arrogance, have any other comment in public than "Yes Sir" to the directions given by a moderator or admin, I will make sure you won't give any comments to anyone on this forum for a very long time. 
 
As you already have a previous record, consider this a friendly advice.
A warning, would have had immediate consequences but don't be mistaken - it was close.
 
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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 05:12
What I find interesting is that for some reason people want to legitmitize Hamas for being Democratic. Correct if I am wrong but wasn't George Bush Democratically elected? also you do know that Hitler's Nazis were also elected. That is one flaw of democracy is that it is easy to sway the masses with rhetoric in order to get a vote, it happens every four years in the U.S. the great bastion of Democracy. Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?

During the Presidential campaign you should have heard all the stuff rednecks said about Obama. My dad was talking to a customer a sweet looking old lady and she whispered to him " get your dogs and shotguns, we are going to have a coon in the White House."
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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 06:07
Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?


What about their education?



And what do you mean by legitimized? Bush and Hitler weren't legitimate leaders?


Edited by Super Goat (^_^) - 17-Jan-2009 at 06:09
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 06:56
Hello Sun
 
Illiteracy in the Palestinian territories is less than 10% with near 100% high school enrollment (much higher than Israel or the US). All Hamas and Fatah leaderships have post graduate degrees so most of the MPs.
 
Hamas was elected, it formed a government, stopped rockets and despite signing a deal Israel continued to assasinate its members, refused to open the world's largest concentration camp and allow supplies even medical ones. Hamas defended itself yet the world still blame them.
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 14:06
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

What I find interesting is that for some reason people want to legitmitize Hamas for being Democratic.
well they reflect the collective will of most of the people, so in all its weakness there is no other more powerful way than that. what would you suggest? give them a King and Queen let the corrupt Fatah mafia run it.

You way joke about poor choices like Bush, but thankfully they get voted out, eventaully. I can name every royal leader in the Middle east to be an even funnier example of real authority and there is no exit unless you throw them out. The West, esp the USA legitimises it power plays with 'spreading democracy', hence why we point out Hamas' position

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Plus you have to think of the amount of education that Palestinians have(no offense)do they really know what is good for them?
I think every imperialist uses the same logic to rationalise their need to rule others. The Palestinians can rule themselves, a great many are educated (not that this should ever be a prerequisite).




Edited by Leonidas - 17-Jan-2009 at 14:07
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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 03:11
Well having constant hostility towards Israel also upsets the balance in an already unbalanced Middle-East. What I am trying to point out is that Democracy isn't what it used to be, anyone can win an election if you have powerful friends and money. How do you think Senators get elected, one reason why the U.S. Government is plauged by corruption.
Initially I had full-fledged support for Israel, after I heard about Hamas firing their rockets I thought "let them beat the crap out of Hamas," Now seeing the destruction the Israelis have brought and that they were blocking U.N. convoys, my support for them is wavering. I think they could have tried a little more diplomacy instead of just attacking Gaza. The Israelis have been through crap, there actually was a Holocaust 6 million died. Now what Israel is doing is making them no better than their previous aggressors.
Look you guys have your opinions and I have mine I respect your opinions and to be honest I wish both Israel and Palestine wouldn't have to fight. I wish we didn't have to fight over a strip of land that we have foughten for like children over the last 1,000 years. As far as my opinion goes is that people shouldn't legitimize governments because they are "Democratic", there is no utopian society. So just because the people chose their leader doesn't mean their leaders have the best interest of their people, you guys should know that. There are two sides to this war and this war is like all wars because war never changes.



Edited by Sun Tzu - 18-Jan-2009 at 03:27
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 03:22
I don't even know why I'm posting here -- desperation borne of futility? I just wished to note that the dialogue is so far from the point where I believe it could bear any fruit that I have decided not even to try. It saddens me to think that the dialogue on this topic in this forum is just as biased, predictable, and, quite frankly, infantile as the dialogue I have seen everywhere else.
 
I don't fall down clearly on a "side" on this one, so I believe I may justly say that I expected better of us.
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 05:16
Hello to you all
 
More Brits died from IRA and other republican militants than Israeli citizens from Hamas rockets (15 or 16 in the last 4 years) yet despite the support the IRA got from the top echlons of the Irish government it didn't go distroying every town in Ireland nor masscre those who were invloved and those who were simply powerless.
 
There is a hundred different approaches Israel could have taken and these were successful in the past and would have produced more results yet the insistance on mass murder in something beyond reason.
 
Some analysts here say one of the reasons such a massive campaign was launched was that Israel wanted simply to force the Palestinians to abandon Gaza to Egypt then close the borders and unilaterally declare Gaza Israeli territory. This is exactly the kind of thing the early zionists did in Haifa and Tiberias back in 47-48 which lead to the mass migration of the Palestinians though the events of those years were much more bloodie.
 
Anyway in my opinion, the ball is back at the hands of the Palestinians, they must judge the situation by reason not by rhetoric. They accept the truce principle, those in Gaza, but the armchair generals of Damascus and Lebanon refuse it. I hope those in Gaza listen to reason and cut ties with those in Damascus and Lebanon and end this war. Its time for rebuilding not empty slogans.
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 06:28
^ good point and post Al Jassas
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 20:44
Sun Tzu, democracy never was 'what it used to be' to begin with.
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