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Norse tech and the settlement of the Americas
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Jams View Drop Down
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Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Norse tech and the settlement of the Americas
    Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 15:23
Originally posted by Northman

 
Isn't it possible that the fleeing Vikings - or the remaining Norwegians - or any other scouting party from the western settlement during the 400 years since the Viking Age could have authored the Kensington stone.
I don't find it strange that the language and spelling on the stone is inconsistant with other runestones which predates this one with 500 years.
  
Maybe, not impossible, but then again, it is speculation. It's just that to me, judging from the protos of the stone, it just doesn't look old. But the scenario you talk about doesn't require it to be as old, and it means that it is not viking runes in any case. I wonder if they used runes at all in those times?
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Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 15:27
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by pinguin

That's perhaps the more relevant element with respect to theirs landing on the Americas. I know that certain portuguese fishing ships derivate of the longships. Do you have more details about how norse nautical technology influence the development of the European ships?


I didn't mean to go too far off-topic, but I felt there were some misunderstandings that needed to be cleared up before progressing.

Concerning what you ask though, I haven't looked into it. What anyone can find on wikipedia is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship#Legacy

As you can see the longship design remained influential until the late middle ages, when it was replaced by larger types of vessels. The design was still in use until modern times for small-scale purposes such as fishing, like with the boats in Portugal. The same goes for fishing boats in Norway, especially in outlying areas.

The Spanish could probably have sailed to America in longships, but it would've been much more dangerous and far less comfortable. Wink
 
That's interesting, I hadn't read the Wiki article. We still call small clinker built boat as "snekke". I didn't know it was such an old term. Don't you call them the same?
 
Searching for "snekke" gave a lot of pictures, this is probably the classic look:
They can also be motor boats:
Modern glassfibre boat - here it pretty much just a styling, it has almost nothing to do with the old "snekkes".


Edited by Jams - 18-Nov-2008 at 15:59
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:17
Originally posted by Northman

Very nice summary Reginmund Thumbs%20Up.
 

The Kensington stone mentioned by King Jon and Jams might be a fraud as King John said. However, I still believe this to be an open question. Some researchers claim it is a hoax - some are not so sure.

 

Untill the proof of Vikings in North America was discovered around 1960 at Lance aux Meadows, it was highly questioned to be true in spite of the Icelandic saga's claiming it to be true. The saga's and other sources also document the settlements in Greenland - the eastern settlement and the western settlement.

But most sources fail to explain what happened to the western settlement. Suddenly it was gone, and only one source offers a possible explanation aside from the cold climate. They were raided by other Vikings/Pirates.

 

 One Inuit story, recorded by Niels Egede, a Dane who grew up in Greenland during the eighteenth century when Denmark recolonized the island, lends some credence to the story of European raids. The narrator, whose ancestors had passed down the tale, recounts how three alien ships sailed in from the southwest "to plunder." In the ensuing fray, several of the Norsemen, to whom he refers as Norwegians, were killed. "But after the Norwegians had mastered them," he relates, "two of the ships had to sail away and the third they captured. The next year a whole fleet arrived and fought with the Norwegians, plundering and killing to obtain food. The survivors put out their vessels, loaded with what was left, and sailed away south, leaving some people behind. The next year the pirates came back again, and when we saw them we fled, taking some of the Norwegian women and children with us up the fjord, and left the others in the lurch. When we returned in the autumn hoping to find some people again, we saw to our horror that everything had been carried away, and houses and farms were burned down so that nothing was left."
 

 

The quote above is an excerpt from this article.

 

Isn't it possible that the fleeing Vikings - or the remaining Norwegians - or any other scouting party from the western settlement during the 400 years since the Viking Age could have authored the Kensington stone.

I don't find it strange that the language and spelling on the stone is inconsistant with other runestones which predates this one with 500 years.

 

 
I know for a fact that it is a fake, since I have a professor who has admitted to being one of the people who carved it.
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 18:15
Originally posted by King John

I know for a fact that it is a fake, since I have a professor who has admitted to being one of the people who carved it.
 
I don't know whether he carved it or not, but one can only congratulate and commend a professor who still are teaching way beyond his 110'th birthday - the stone was found in 1898. Smile
 
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 20:30
I'm sorry I misspoke when I said it was the Kensington Runestone that my professor forged, it was, however a Runestone that was "discovered" near Kensington. Here is a link to an article about the forgery
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Posts: 4262 		  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 20:35
Originally posted by King John

I'm sorry I misspoke when I said it was the Kensington Runestone that my professor forged, it was, however a Runestone that was "discovered" near Kensington. Here is a link to an article about the forgery
 
No problem and no apology needed KJ - I knew it had to be a mistake Smile
 
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Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 21:00
One thing that puzzles me with that stone,  if you're going to make a fake, then why make it stylistically different from the originals? That seems weird.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 21:45
Originally posted by Jams

One thing that puzzles me with that stone,  if you're going to make a fake, then why make it stylistically different from the originals? That seems weird.


It really isn't. There are tons of styles. Besides, it's supposed to have been made in the 1300s, not during the Viking age, and as a rushed message and not as a monument.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 18-Nov-2008 at 21:45
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Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 22:00
Right, there sure are tons of styles. Almost each stone is an individual style on its own. However, there are some things that seems to be fairly common on runestones, especially stones with a lot of text (which, incidently, isn't very common). Now, if it is from the 1300, that may not apply, and therefore it may be a real stone (which is what I meant) IF it is a fake, THEN it would seem curious to me that they would use an uncommon style. However, if it's as old as from the 1300's, then it is still curious to me that the letters are so well preserved and sharp - in great contrast with all runestones I've ever seen (they have been older though).
 
All that said, I don't see anything preventing this from being a real (ie old) stone that someone brought to the US long after it was made, for some reason, - that kind of thing can also happen.
 
Lotsa possibilities.


Edited by Jams - 18-Nov-2008 at 22:00
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 22:27
I would like to applaud whoever it was that carefully directed everyone from the Heavener stone, which is the stone being tested and is very likely real to the Kensington stone which is very likely not.  Nicely done.  Pinguin couldn't have done any better.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 22:51
Originally posted by red clay

I would like to applaud whoever it was that carefully directed everyone from the Heavener stone, which is the stone being tested and is very likely real to the Kensington stone which is very likely not.  Nicely done.  Pinguin couldn't have done any better.


Why would anyone want to direct attention from that? If you want to discuss it just bring it up again?
---
That said, the Heavener stone is most probably as fake as the Kensington stone.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 23:09
Well, anyone can explain me who wrote the Iceland Sagas that recorded the lives and events of Eric the Red, Leif Ericsson and Vindland?
 
How many centuries after the events they were redacted, and how sure are we the events related are precise. For instance, how do we know Eric the Red existed and reached Greenland and not a guy with the name Rolf Olafsson or something like that? LOL
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Posts: 365 		  Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 23:33
There are more than one, but one is thought to have been written by Haukr Erlendsson.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauksb%C3%B3k
 
Probably written around 1300, more than a couple of hundred years after the fact - but it is unknown with the other sources AFAIK.


Edited by Jams - 18-Nov-2008 at 23:37
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Posts: 1943 		  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 09:15
Originally posted by Jams

That's interesting, I hadn't read the Wiki article. We still call small clinker built boat as "snekke". I didn't know it was such an old term. Don't you call them the same?


Yes. No surprise there as written Norwegian and Danish are near identical.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 10:07
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, anyone can explain me who wrote the Iceland Sagas that recorded the lives and events of Eric the Red, Leif Ericsson and Vindland?
 
How many centuries after the events they were redacted, and how sure are we the events related are precise. For instance, how do we know Eric the Red existed and reached Greenland and not a guy with the name Rolf Olafsson or something like that? LOL


Oral traditions were very strong in ancient Scandinavia and Iceland, but of course they are not completely reliable. Vinland was first mentioned by Adam of Bremen around 1070. He got the information during his stay at the Danish court.

The main documented evidence that has survived is a passage in the Book of Icelanders, written by Ari Thorkilsson in the 1120s. His source was an uncle of his, who had stayed on Greenland in his youth, and had gotten first-hand information from an old man who had sailed with Eric the Red.
The two other sources are the saga of the Greenlanders and the saga of Eric the red, both written down by unknown authors in the mid 1200s.



Yes. No surprise there as written Norwegian and Danish are near identical.


In Swedish it's snäcka, but it's only used in some areas - a more common word is snipa.

Snipa:





Edited by Styrbiorn - 19-Nov-2008 at 10:16
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Posts: 36 		  Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 15:00


I suppose that somebody mentioned before something about a lost Viking ship.

Re: Around 967 AD, it was recorded that a Viking ship led by Ullmann on the way to Iceland was driven by strong ocean currents and blown off course. Could this ship have ended up in Central America?

Could all of these legends be based on one real person? And could that person have been a Norseman?

http://archaeology.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_vikingmaya_connection

The World History tells about tens of thousands of disappeared ships but in many cases the crew members have survived. Is this lost Norwegian Viking ship the origin of the myths of the Mexican and Peruvian Indians - their forefathers (gods) were barbed, blonde and tall men?

With Y-DNA-Haplotype searches if Amerindian tribes we can find many hits even to Norwegians - even to Iceland, Sweden and Finland - but in most cases the “real Amerindians” of many tribes result as admixed. At the same time many “admixed” turn out to be pure Amerindians.

Anyway I found a real surprise among the Mapuche tribe of Argentine. One haplotype with 9 loci haplotype search (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS385a/b) gave a SURPRISING result of only two samples:

- Neuquén, Argentina (Mapuche/ Amerindian)
- Northern Norway (Norwegian/ Eurasian - European - Western European)

Could this detail refer to the lost Viking ship? As a rule I am used to utilize only 7 haplotype loci search and the result above in highly unusual and puzzling.

I must add that at least a Mayan tribe moved later to Peru to assist the defense against the brutal attack of “Barbarians” who came from The Pacific Ocean on a two sailed ship that surely was not of Norse origins. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 15:12

My question is, who said Natives had histories about bearded pale foreigners? It is interesting to note those myths started with the Spaniards and weren't really Amerindian ideas.

Yes, all those ideas of white gods, the lost tribe of Israel in the Americas, the lost paradyse, the fountain of youth, the city of the caesars and El Dorado (The golden one) and many other supersticious ideas were invented by the Spaniards as a way to explain the New World. Don't blame natives, please LOL


Edited by pinguin - 19-Nov-2008 at 15:23
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 15:25
Originally posted by Hukumari

Anyway I found a real surprise among the Mapuche tribe of Argentine. One haplotype with 9 loci haplotype search (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS385a/b) gave a SURPRISING result of only two samples:

- Neuquén, Argentina (Mapuche/ Amerindian)
- Northern Norway (Norwegian/ Eurasian - European - Western European)
 
That isn't surprising at all. Mapuches had the hobbie to capture women among the Europeans. There is a place in Chile called Boroa where many Mapuches are blond blue-eyed. During the 19th century a british ship landed there and many ladies survived LOL
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Posts: 36 		  Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 16:16
Originally posted by pinguin

My question is, who said Natives had histories about bearded pale foreigners? It is interesting to note those myths started with the Spaniards and weren't really Amerindian ideas.

Who said?
For instance a Finnish author and specialist of Quechuan language from the epoch of 1550, Esko Korpilinna, wrote in 1967 in Finnish (Crying Gods/Apu-lehti) :
“ Thus the tradition of the Mayas, Incas and Aztecs mentions a WHITE, barbed nation as the source of their language and civilization. NO, the tradition doesn’t mention a nation but a few barbed men”.

There are many other sources:
Por su parte, los incas representaban a su dios creador, Viracocha, como un hombre viejo y barbudo.
http://www.gestae.com/Galeria/enigmas/enigma04.htm

Anyway Ullman and his Viking crew & ship disappeared.
I found only one surname (Ullman) with a perfect haplotype with the following results based on surname search:

8 Norway (Norwegian)
5 Antioquia, Colombia (Mestizo)
2 Nariño, Colombia (Mestizo)
2 Maracaibo, Venezuela (Mestizo)
2 Valle de Cauca, Colombia (Mestizo)
1 Bogotá, Colombia (Mestizo)
1 Atlántico, Colombia (Mestizo)
1 Costa Rica (Mestizo)
1 Iceland (Icelandic)
1 Quito, Ecuador (Mestizo)
1 Mexico City, Mexico (Mestizo)
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Posts: 36 		  Quote Hukumari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 16:21
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Hukumari

Anyway I found a real surprise among the Mapuche tribe of Argentine. One haplotype with 9 loci haplotype search (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS385a/b) gave a SURPRISING result of only two samples:

- Neuquén, Argentina (Mapuche/ Amerindian)
- Northern Norway (Norwegian/ Eurasian - European - Western European)
 
That isn't surprising at all. Mapuches had the hobbie to capture women among the Europeans. There is a place in Chile called Boroa where many Mapuches are blond blue-eyed. During the 19th century a british ship landed there and many ladies survived LOL

The women of any race do NOT have the slightest effect in Y-DNA...in other words into the  paternal line of DNA!
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