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Tomo View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:12
So the take over of milosevic basically destoryed yuogslavia since it was illegal. He was not voted to take powere, he was not even the president and commander in chief. So yugoslavia after that was no more, since alot of those laws were violated.
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so read read read my friend.
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Originally posted by Tomo

doesnt matter if it was stupid, Tito set that up and was made in the constitution you cannot deny that.(voj &Kos) So once breaking that n plus the army listening to a non president made the esence of yugoslavia no more so hence it gave the right of other republics to seperate.

 
2. Those video's were croat forces(cause those croat operations, southern move, meastral read about it. And already show's croat flags, tanks, infantry, planes, IFVs, And helicopters.
Which reached 23 km from banja luka. The bos 5th corps was only made of 25,000 men no more.
 
Voivodina's autonomy wasn't taken away technically. Kosovo's autonomy was taken away because of the abuses of the albanian government there against the Serb population.
 
In any case it didn't give the right for Alija to 1, break Yugoslav law by taking the presidency from Abdic, and 2 Bosnia breaking away from Yugoslavia when the proper percentile for the vote wasn't present and forcing Yugoslav citizens in over 50 percent of the territory in Bosnia to live under the rulership of this new country.
 
I don't care about the Croat forces. That's another topic and a rather unimpressive one at that.
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Originally posted by Tomo

So the take over of milosevic basically destoryed yuogslavia since it was illegal. He was not voted to take powere, he was not even the president and commander in chief. So yugoslavia after that was no more, since alot of those laws were violated.
 
Milosevic actually won the election Serbia. That wasn't illegal. But we aren't talking about that either.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:21
My less informed friend,
 
It is widly known that vojvodina's autonomy was taken away n u cant deny that period.
Second, to my well knowledge, the serbians for the last 20 year's were violating the albanian minority(brutal tactics of supressing protests, abuses ect..)
ANd even so if the albanians were abusing the serbs their, it was not to milos to end the autonomy of kosovo. It was up to the president of yugoslavia to do it.
 
thirdly you are the one who was talking about alija's forces ect...
And second i wouldnt call that less impressive since we almost destroyed the RS, but since Dayton and NATO that was out of the question.  but yet that's another story, like u said.
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Yes the elections in serbia, but not in the rest of yugoslavia. All six republics had to vote not one state. Since all state's were equal. Thats why it was called SFRJ yugoslavia. Learn my friend.
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so hence the take over was illegal period.

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I am sorry to say that you do not know me well enough to call me less informed or your friend, but to get to the point:
 
Voivodina was given autonomy by a CROAT, Tito who hated Serbia. So even if autonomy was fully taken away (it wasn't) it would be against an idiot's law. Like Tito said "A weak Serbia makes a strong Yugoslavia." That is why over 40 percent of ethnic Serbs in Yugoslavia were outside the boarders of Serbia.
 
Next Kosovo, its history, its name, everything about it is Serbian. It has an Albanian majority because of the Ottoman opression on Serbs and later the disgusting genocidal Nazi's agreement to Greater Albania. The Albanians had full autonomy in Kosovo, it was more or less their own country. They seeked to get rid of the Serbs in it, as well as the Gorani. Milosevic tried to end that by taking away its autonomy which was placed by Tito the tyrant.
 
Alija Izetbegovic is whom I am talking about.
 
The Croatian forces in the war were a joke. The only reason they posed any threat was because of NATO. Their greatest "conquest" was killing/kicking out Serbian civilians in Krajina, a Serb region since the 1500s. More Tito Gerrymandering.
 
Milosevic has nothing to do with the illigality of Bosnia. WHy are you bringing it up? Bosnia broke away with less then the needed percentile there to vote, and they did this in the morning when the Serb side wasn't even present. It was illegal because there wasn't enough people and they did it at the wrong hours. IT was illegal end of story.
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Posts: 28 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:53
Oh wow i didnt relise that you were that of a ignorant person. You make me laugh. SO what if tito was a croat? that was the point of yugoslavia that all of the six nations were equal. IF it werent for Tito serbia would of been slaving under the USSR like the ukranians and pole's. Hated the serbs? boy , if he had hated the serbs he would have either left serbia to the Ruskie's or would of put zagreb as the capital of Yugoslavia.
 
Next, doesnt matter if it was serbia before or not it still broke the laws of yugoslavia, which didnt matter if it was idiots law or not. That's the point. Milo's take over was illegal also. So the essence of yugoslavia was destroyed, so the rest had a right to seperate after this. Your basically admiting that serbia and milos violated those laws. So others had the right to do so, since yugoslavia was no more after that. Period so why are u bringing up this convo again.
 
 
Joke? i would call the JNA a joke, first of all , it took them 3 months to conquer a city full of civilians and some ZNG gaurds with far less weaopons then the JNA had in that battle. And after that nothing impressive for an army that was claimed to be 4th in europe. More of embarsment may i add. And far as i know NATO didnt get involved  in most of the years in the 90's. reason that the RS is still standing and dodik is saftely at home is because of NATO(dayton). And the only reason of serbia being untouched was because of international pressure to creat peace and stability in the region.
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Krajina wasnt a serb region, first of all my uneducated friend. It was in the kindom of croatia in the austro--hungarian empire. the serbs imigrated there, to flee from the turkish invasion of serbia and bosnia. Same as the kosovars who came and overpopulated kosovo.
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The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
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"Oh wow i didnt relise that you were that of a ignorant person. You make me laugh. SO what if tito was a croat? that was the point of yugoslavia that all of the six nations were equal. IF it werent for Tito serbia would of been slaving under the USSR like the ukranians and pole's. Hated the serbs? boy , if he had hated the serbs he would have either left serbia to the Ruskie's or would of put zagreb as the capital of Yugoslavia. "
 
But all the nations weren't equal. Serbia had more people. Why force Serbs to live outside of Serbia? Krajina was a Serbian land. Why give it to Croats for example? Serbs and Russians had a good friendship and always have. I doubt they would be slaves, and I hate the USSR.
 
"Next, doesnt matter if it was serbia before or not it still broke the laws of yugoslavia, which didnt matter if it was idiots law or not. That's the point. Milo's take over was illegal also. So the essence of yugoslavia was destroyed, so the rest had a right to seperate after this. Your basically admiting that serbia and milos violated those laws. So others had the right to do so, since yugoslavia was no more after that. Period so why are u bringing up this convo again."
 
Voivodina was a part of Serbia within Yugoslavia. Milosevic was in full right to do what he wished with HIS country, Serbia. Taking autonomy from Voivodina doesn't mean Yugoslavia ceased to exist. This is just a lame excuse.
 
"Joke? i would call the JNA a joke, first of all , it took them 3 months to conquer a city full of civilians and some ZNG gaurds with far less weaopons then the JNA had in that battle. And after that nothing impressive for an army that was claimed to be 4th in europe. More of embarsment may i add. And far as i know NATO didnt get involved  in most of the years in the 90's. reason that the RS is still standing and dodik is saftely at home is because of NATO(dayton). And the only reason of serbia being untouched was because of international pressure to creat peace and stability in the region. "
 
 
Vukovar was Serb/Croat city, not just a Croatian city. I'm pretty sure the Serbs had a slight majority. The JNA didn't want to destroy Vukovar, but simply protect the Serb Republic of Krajina. The Germans pulled back to gain media sympathy.
 
As far as you know you are incorrect. As early as 1990 American congress put sanctions on Yugoslavia and got the world bank to deny Yugoslavia its services. The break up of Yugoslavia was planned much in advance. Let's be realistic, the Croatian forces only had success because of NATO. Their forces were too small and weren't equiped as well until of course the Germans (old friends eh?) gave them the weaponry.
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Originally posted by Tomo

Krajina wasnt a serb region, first of all my uneducated friend. It was in the kindom of croatia in the austro--hungarian empire. the serbs imigrated there, to flee from the turkish invasion of serbia and bosnia. Same as the kosovars who came and overpopulated kosovo.
 
Nope. The Austro Hungarians placed the Serbs in Krajina in the 1500s after the Ottoman Turks killed everything there and no one settled it. Look at the military Krajina front in a history book. Albanians came to Kosovo via Turkish rulership and Nazi conquest.
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Originally posted by Tomo

The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
 
Who is "you guys"? I'm not Serbian.
 
Germany provided weapons for Croatia while "retired" AMerican generals provided leadership for Croatia. NATO was also in charge of air power in Operations Flash and Storm.
 
I'm curious how old are you?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Krajina
 
The following map was published by National Geographic Vol. 178, No.2, August 1990 , less than a year before the civil wars broke in ex-Yugoslavia, on page 105. The front page of the August issue had title
 
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Short excerpts from (different) encyclopediae:

FACTS EASY TO CHECK:

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1946,...,1952
Reference: EB, Edition 1946, (through 1952), Volume 6, page 730 and 731:
Entry: entry "Croatia-Slavonia"
(Note that even in the title: Croatia and Slavonia are two different entities...)
Quote:

Necessity dictated in 1578 the formation of special provinces known as the "military frontiers" (q.v.) (Vojna Krajina) - the Slavonian between Drave and Kulpa with Varazdin as its centre, the Croatian between Kulpa and sea, with Karlovac (Karlstadt), so named after Archduke Charles of Styria, who held the supreme command. Their reincorporation was repeatedly demanded by the Croatian estates but without effect, and they RETAINED THEIR IDENTITY TILL LONG AFTER THE EXPULSION OF TURKS...

 

...in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...

..in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...
(End quote)

The New Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1986
Reference: EB, Edition 1986, Macropedia, Vol 29, page 1061
Entry: Yugoslavia, Croatia, History
Quote:

The Vojna Krajina (Militargrenze), a military frontier zone on Croatian territory, was formed in 1578. As THIS ZONE WAS SUBJECT DIRECTLY TO THE EMPEROR IN VIENNA, it meant further loss for the Croats.

Turkish invasion instigated a partial change in the ethnic aspect of Croatian lands. Large numbers of Croats abandoned their homes and moved northward seeking safety, some even going out of Croatia altogether into Austria. In partly depopulated areas the rulers settled... ...or granted certain privileges to the Serbs who escaped from the Balkans and took refuge in the Vojna Krajina to became defenders of the Habsburg Empire.

(End quote)

The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition, year 1993
Reference: EA, Edition 1993, Volume 8, page 227
Entry: Croatia, history, page 227
Quote:

In 1578 the Habsburgs created the so-called Military Frontier, where peasants were granted land in return for military service. THE AREA WAS ADMINISTERED *DIRECTLY* FROM VIENNA, *NOT* FROM CROATIA,... (!!!)
(End quote)

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1952
Reference: EB, Edition 1952, Vol 15, pages 480 and 481
Entry: MILITARY FRONTIER (German: Militargrenze)
Quote:

...in 1527, after the defeat of Hungary by the Turks at Mohacs, southern Croatia was left deserted, its inhabitants having fled north before the Turks. The Austrian government built a series of forts in this zone, and organized the remaining population, with immigrant Serbs and Vlachs, into a defense force under military supervision... This organization was gradually extended, and in 1630 received a formal statute.

By the end of the 17th century, there were three "Generalates," in Karlstadt (Karlovats), Warasdin and Petrinja respectively. The Hungarian and Croat Estates deeply resented the existence of this EXCEPTION FROM THEIR AUTHORITY, and constantly demanded its abolition, especially after Prince Eugene's victories had practically ended the Turkish peril, but the "Granzer" themselves RESISTED ANY CHANGE, and Habsburgs had also now become alive to its usefulness as a weapon against the unruly nobles. Instead of abolishing, they extended it: a new Slavonian district was established in 1702, a Szekler, in East Transylvania, in 1764, and Wallach in 1766. THE FRONTIER NOW RAN FROM THE ADRIATIC TO THE CONFINES OF MOLDAVIA.

The "Grenzer" gradually became the backbone of the Austrian army. As its bravest, most loyal and best disciplined troops...

In 1849 the Frontier was formed into a separate province, with an area of 15,182 sq.m., and a population of 1,220,503, MOSTLY SERB or Croat, with some Vlach or Rumanian...

(End quote)

Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1990
Reference: EB, Edition 1990, Vol 29, page 1103
Entry: Yugoslavia, The Habsburg lands, Migrations
Quote:

A prominent feature of Austrian and Hungarian lands was the "Military Frontier" (Militargrenze), which dated from the first attempts to reclaim Croatia and Slavonia from the Turkish rule. In 1578 the Austrians began to organize frontier marchlands against the Turks with a system of forts, watchtowers, and warning beacons staffed by a force of granicari (frontiersmen). the granicari were granted land in frontier regions in return for military service. The system was reorganized and consolidated through the next two centuries, ... At its height it extended in a belt of varying widths across the entire northern border of the Ottoman Empire from the Adriatic coast to Walacia...

Having been badly depopulated by Turkish raids, the Military Frontier was resettled largely by refugees of a variety of ethnic origins, but Serbs and Bosnians (*) contributed a large portion. Particularly important was the great migration in 1691, as a consequence of which the region came to contain some of the major centres of Serbian culture... The ethnic map of Yugoslavia today [1990] bears the marks of these migrations.

(End quote)
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http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24917&PN=13
 
 
I suggest we go here for the rest of the discussion.
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Dosent matter, boy. If it was inscribed in the constitution(serbian lands or not), it could not have been taken away by merly a president of just one province in the state of yugoslavia.
 
 
Lol another undereducated statement. If you had known and is widly known, that the majority of that city was destroyed first of all. If they would of been carefull because of serb civilians, they wouldnt of put nearlly thousands of shells directly into the ctiy, and destroyed of what was left of it. Which most call a pathetic army after the 3 months. LOL video? that's just a biased  propaganda video nothing more. Genocide? what genocide.
 
Krajina wasnt serbian land it has always been croatian since from the begining my undereducated friend. Serbs imigrated to the krajina to flee from the turkish invasions. So krajina was alway ours,even in yugoslavia. So if your talking about population. then wouldnt of kosovo been albanian just because the population was a little higher?  its called double standard. Second doesnt matter if they had the populous or not that was not the point of yugoslavia. It was made that all nations were equal. But if you want to talk details, the partisan revolution was started in croatia, by croatians which spread across the region. So by this it would have given us more rights. But again that was not the point of the SFRJ. THe point was that all nations were equal. I suggest you learn about the nations history before you add anymore.
 
Second the USSR went into serbia, and if it wernt for tito you would have been under the USSR. THe ukranians and the poles and the rest had more ties then even serbs had to the russians, and were still slaves.


Third,yes the sanctions, lol the americans helped you there. Since we let u have most of the weaponry milos didnt care since we didnt have anything. So hence the sanctions were hurting us more then you people. Second  NATO did not equip us, we had aquired weapons through the black market over the years and created a large army. 200-000 plus a couple of hundreds of thousands more, would not be called a small force. Thats why your forces were running away from us across the border into bosnia. Pathetic.
 
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Nope, military krajina was under hausburg crown, and the serbians were fleeing from the turkish onslaught and in slavonia was more of a buffer zone, which had the hausburg armies stationed. So krajina was always ours.
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Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Originally posted by Tomo

The only reason you had at the first years of fighting the majority of weapons because we(tudman) let you guys have it(tanks and IFV's , planes from vojnara zagreb,and across slavonija, and ships from pula, due to the fear of international pressure)
And i wonder what this so called NATO story did, more of a propaganda trick to clear the wonds from most of all your lost wars and battles. Not one nato troop or armour pratispate in the operation.  We made our own UAV's that gave us intelligence on the field on which forces were on the ground.(Bl-500 UAV) We had gathered our weapons from the black market. The only thing theyve done was bombed a Sam because it was locked by it, during a nofly zone enforcment which was trying to shoot down or to clear one of our migs away from the no fly zone.
 
Who is "you guys"? I'm not Serbian.
 
Germany provided weapons for Croatia while "retired" AMerican generals provided leadership for Croatia. NATO was also in charge of air power in Operations Flash and Storm.
 
I'm curious how old are you?
 
Nope, again an undereducated statment. Yes we got some weapons from germany, we got from the ukranians, poles ect under the black market that we had to costly pay for, my dear friend. American airpower? sorry my friend , they were only enforcing no fly zones which we were affected. And had our own mils and migs to do the bombing for ourselves. To your knowledge im 30 years old. I guese by these statments of yours, you must be a child.
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