Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
|
Topic: Bosnian Army Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 17:17 |
If people adopt a religion with no polical or economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting. However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims.
Two mistake in two sentence,
Firstly you cannot know why they converted.
Secondly, Converted people are not the people live now, Religion of islam is religion of their birth. So they will not think, our fathers converted this religion because of political or economical motivation. So lets change it.
They will think, we are muslim. So your historical investigation dont hold much water.
But after all you know your people better.
|
 |
Guests
Guest
|
Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 23:05 |
I'm so supportive of Bosnians, I'd even go there myself to help
out.
|
 |
ill_teknique
Colonel
Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
|
Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:02 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
If people adopt a religion with no polical or
economical motivation then it has a much stronger chance of lasting.
However this is not the issue with most Balkan muslims. For the
Bosnians, its become a sort of thing they like to dangle over the
Serbs, their identity is based off Islam, without Islam, Bosnians are
just Croats and Serbs, with the Kosovar is the similar issue,
culturally surrounded bya people of different religion who despise the
latter, samething, this is why I want Kosovo to go independant, so it
does not have to be in this situation. Same with the Iliriden, of
Fyrom. Had all these peopel been given complete freedom and had the
Serbs not been so aggressive over the fact that these peoipel are
muslims, you would have seen the religiousness die out due to cultural
isolation, but the Serbs acted idiotically brutally massacering
thousands etc etc. which only enforced the religiouness on these
people(Bosnians and Kosovar). Albanians were never in this however, the
entire Albanian identity had no religion in place in fact it was the
only nation in the Balkans that did not place its indentity on religion
but on Albanianess(Hence the poem "Religion of Albanians is
Albanianism"). This on top of the fact that the Ottoman Empire was
dying and very much isolating Albania, on top of that was often working
against Albanias interests reading to partition the land among Serbs
and Greeks, and making the muslims, the original high class society, be
like the others. However, the Christians in Albania lived for 500 years
in an enviroment that was like the Kosovar Albs and Bosnians today,
surrounded by converters, so their religion is held tighter where as
the muslims in Albania were the highclass and thus not really attached
to the religion as it was taken as more of a economical thing then
spiritual. Get it? |
PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF
CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS.
A - THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE
OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF
KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA
SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC
B - THE THEORY THAT BOSNIANS ARE EITHER CONVERTED CROATS OR SERBS IS
ABSURD BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FROM SERBIA OR CROATIA THEY ARE BOSNAINS
FROM BOSNNIA A MEDIEVAL KINGDOM THAT WAS CONQUERED BY THE OTTOMANS AND
IT ADOPTED ISLAM AND THERE WERE INTERMARIAGES BETWEEN TURKS AND
BOSNIANS. IT IS SERBIAN PROPAGANDA THAT SPREAD THIS IDEA BACK IN
THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY SO THAT IT COULD CLAIM BOSNIA.
C - THE BOSNIAN IDENTITY IS AMPLIFIED BY ISLAM AND OTTOMAN HERITAGE IT DOES NOT CENTER ON IT.
D - DONT EVER STATE ANTYHING ON A COUNTRY TOPIC YOU HAVE NO f**kING CLUE WHAT SO EVER ABOUT
WHY ARE WE DISCUSING ALBANIA AND THE "ALLEGED" MASS APEAL AMONG KURDS FOR BREAKAWAY FROM TURKEY IN A B0SNIAN THREAD
|
 |
TheodoreFelix
Colonel
Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694
|
Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:32 |
Something got up someones ass....
PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC ALBAINIANS. |
Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45  less if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy % of Albanians being agnostics today.
THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX SOME WERE CATHOLIC |
There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity for themselves today.
As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan" spread throught the Internet.
|
 |
erci
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
|
Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 03:58 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any
hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that
most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan"
spread throught the Internet.
|
Most Kurds?  No they're not.the maps
wasn't created by Turkish Kurds.it is a dream of iraqi Kurds and some
other countries which also support terrorism and a separation of
Turkey.you said it, hypocrasy it is.
|
 |
ill_teknique
Colonel
Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
|
Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 15:59 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
Something got up someones ass....
PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON MY NATIONALITY BECAUSE YOU ARE A
PISSED OF CHRISTIAN ALBANIAN IN A COUNTRY DOMINATED BY ISLAMIC
ALBAINIANS. |
Lol, I am from a half Christian half muslim family, I myself am an
athiest. This supposed "muslim domination" does not take into account
athiests and agnostics that have developed in Albania throughout the
century. My entire "muslim" side has never stepped into a mosque or
touched a Kuran. The reality is that muslims in Albania number around 45 less
if you look at religious ones, these are just the ones who would say
they are muslim because they were born to muslim parents) which a heavy
% of Albanians being agnostics today.
THERE WAS A INDEPENDENT BOSNIAN KINGDOM LONG BEFORE THE
OTTOMANS CAME, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THERE WERE EITHER BOGMILS OF
KRSTJANI - THE LOCAL INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF BOSNIA SOME WERE ORTODOX
SOME WERE CATHOLIC |
There was an Independant Kingdom of Montenegro too, called Zeta, doesnt mean Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Before Ottoman invasion however, Bosnia was mostly a geographical
term, nonetheless, the people there have developed a different identity
for themselves today.
As for the Kurd thing, I was simply asking if there was any
hypocracy in the mentality since most people, as I, have a view that
most Kurds in Turkey wanted their own land, hence maps like "Kurdistan"
spread throught the Internet.
|
Yes Montenegro/ crna gora is a nationality because no montenegrin calls himself a serb, they call themselves montenegrins.
Serbia is a geographic term so you know what I am going to say that
there is no serbian nationality but they are bosnian orthodox
chrisitians that developed a distinct nationality after a while.
Because as you know the Bosnian King did crown himself king of serbia
in 1377 he suported the serbian prince on his claims of serbia and
never conquered the whole country but still they are bosnians by that
theory. please spare me your bullsh*t.
|
 |
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 16:14 |
Bosnians over fascist and genocidal racist Serbs any day.
Long live Bosnia.
|
 |
Al Bedawi
Knight
Joined: 28-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 72
|
Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 07:15 |
I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.
unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the
Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.
The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more
western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and
Austrians and Italians.
Serbs however look towards russia.
|
An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
|
 |
ill_teknique
Colonel
Joined: 28-Jun-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 636
|
Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 19:50 |
Originally posted by Al Bedawi
I hate to say this But I like both Bosnians and Serbs.
unless I am ignorant I had allways thought the
Bosniak was no different than a Serb or Croat.
The Only differences between a serb and a croat is that a Croat s more
western oriented due to catholocism and the ties between Croats and
Austrians and Italians.
Serbs however look towards russia.
|
Bosnian from bosnia
bosnians have three religions islam cahtolic orthodox
the krsstjani and bogomils converted en masse to islam and mixed with turks during the Ottoman empire
the catholic bosnians and orhodox bosnian stayed same religion
the krstanji was the name of the Independent Bosnian Church that had no ties to Rome or Constatniople
serbians and croatians live in bosnia too and they are iether catholic or orthodox
all three natioalites come from slavic tribes that invaded the are in the 7th ct
there is a difference because there were three kingdoms a kingdom of
croatia which lasted up to 11th ct and was annexed by hungary
the bosnian kingdom that lasted till 1463
and the serbian which lasted till 1390s
//////
|
 |
Guests
Guest
|
Posted: 31-Jul-2005 at 16:13 |
I was in Iran during the Bosnian war. The Iranian govt was constantly
airing television propaganda, in an attempt to get Iranians to
volunteer and fight in Bosnia. The music they used sounded like
religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty
inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for
these songs on the internet?
|
 |
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 02:09 |
in the Massacre of Srebrenicia, more than 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were murdered after the town of Srebrenica fell to Bosnian Serb forces, commanded by Krstic, in the summer of 1995.
The civilized countries of Europe just stood up watching. BBC itself comments : "Srebrenica was supposed to be a UN-designated safe area but UN forces in the town proved unable or unwilling to help its Muslim population. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1470654.stm
Without the courage & bravery of the Muslim Bosnians and the help of their brothers from all the Islamic world, where would be Bosnia now? divided? Actually not even divided, will be empty. Serbians don't conquer cities only, they massacre populations!
They say, in Bosnia, ethnic cleansing happened. I just wonder why is it ethnic if all Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs are of the same race? Only Albanians are different. Clearly, it was nothing but religious cleansing in Bosnia. I'm just proud that I know personally 2 older people who joined the War in Bosnia. One is back. The other one is missing till today.
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
 |
Guests
Guest
|
Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 06:49 |
never stepped into a mosque or touched a Kuran |
Maybe because they are Bektashis or Alevis...
Believe it or not, Albania was the capital of the Bektashi sect, a sect found by a Turkmen of Khorasan, Haci Bektash Veli...
Albanians were always one of the most important subjects of the empire's ulema. Half of the sadrazams were Albanian origined. Albania was the last Balkan country to become independent from Ottoman rule. Because they didnt even fight to become independent. They were happy and totally loyal to the Ottoman Empire.
The majority of citizens of Albania are secular in orientation after decades of rigidly enforced atheism under the Communist regime, which ended in 1990. Despite such secularism, most citizens traditionally associate themselves with a religious group. Citizens of Muslim background make up the largest traditional religious group (estimated at 65 to 70 percent of the population) and are divided into two communities: those associated with a moderate form of Sunni Islam and those associated with the Bektashi school (a particularly liberal form of Shi'a Sufism). In 1925 after the revolution of Ataturk in Turkey, the country became the world center of Bektashism, although it has not been recognized as such by the Government. Unlike traditional Muslims, the Bektashi did not forbid followers to drink alcohol or eat pork, did not require women to be veiled, and used a less formal type of prayer. Bektashis are estimated to represent approximately 20% of the country's Muslim population.
Muslims are spread throughout the country but are concentrated mostly in the middle of the country and to a lesser extent in the south. Orthodox remain mainly in the south, and Catholics in the north of the country; however, this division is not strict, particularly in the case of many urban centers, which have mixed populations. The Greek minority, concentrated in the south, belongs to the Orthodox Church. No data is available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates are that 30 to 40 percent of the population practices a religion. Foreign religious representatives, including Muslim clerics, Christian and Bah' missionaries, members of Jehovah's Witnesses, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), and many others freely carry out religious activities.
According to the State Committee on Cults, as of 2002, there were about 17 different Muslim societies and groups active in the country; some of these groups were foreign. There were 31 Christian societies representing more than 45 different organizations and 500 to 600 Christian and Bah' missionaries. The largest foreign missionary groups were American, British, Italian, Greek, and Arab.
|
 |
Guests
Guest
|
Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:40 |
Selam Alejkum jarane.. sta ima?
ivela Bosna 
ja volim bosna i sve iz bosna
allahimant
|
 |
Guests
Guest
|
Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 19:47 |
Originally posted by DFront21
The music they used sounded like religious/nationalist Bosnian combat songs, i thought they were pretty inspiring even if i didnt understand them. Is there any source for these songs on the internet? |
yes there are, but I'm not sure what songs you're looking for, however try looking for the one called "Bosna Je Jedna Jedina", you could find it easily, it is great.
|
 |
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 11:48 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
Im wondering guys, I mean you obviously back
the whole Bosnian liberation movement and succession from Serbia. But
Im pretty sure you would be stoutly against a succession from the
Kurds. Do you guys really have a way to justify but not the latter?
|
We did not "succeed" from Serbia. That would imply we were a part of Serbia, which we were not.
Even historically speaking, Bosnia existed before the first Serbian
kingdom was fully consolidated. Before the Ottoman Empire, we were also
members of the Bosnian Church - which was not aligned with any faith,
but had closer ties to Roman Catholicism and Croatia than to Serbia.
Our King, Tvrtko Kotromanic, conquered Serbia at one point.
In fact, the only time Bosnia was not recognized as such was from
1918-1945. Following WWI we were incorporated into the Kingdom of
Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes. During WWII we were incorporated into
Croatia. After WWII we were incorporated into Yugoslavia, as the
Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
 |
erci
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:11 |
so who are the Bosniaks then? can we say they are Slavic Muslims?
|
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
|
 |
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:23 |
Yes, we're Slavic Muslims.
When the Slavs arrived here, they settled what would become Croatia,
Bosnia, and Serbia. Over the centuries, we began to develop our own,
distinct, regional cultures. The introduction of Christianity in this
part of the whole made this process faster. Croatia aligned itself with
Rome, Serbia with Byzantium, but Bosnia developed it's own, distinct
form of Christianity - the Bosnian Church, whose members are usually
called Bogumils.
For whatever reasons, some Croatian and Serbian historians believe
Bosniaks are just "Muslim Serbs", or "Muslim Croats", usually they put
us with the other ethnic group. This is quite easily disproven. Both
countries have records of the speeches of King Tvrtko Kotromanic who
always upheld the Bosniak identity during the days of the Bosnian
Church. The Ottoman Empire provides even greater proof, with literally
thousands of references to the Bosniak identity, and the Bosnian
language. This easily disproves Croatian and Serbian nationalist claims
that the term Bosniak was invented in the 1990s.
The problem is this. Imagine there is a family tree:
The Mother is Ivana, her three daughters are Svetlana, Amira, and Bojana.
Now you can say that Amira is descendant from Ivana, just as you can say Bosniaks are descendent from Slavs.
But you can't say Amira is descendant from Svetlana, just as you can't say Bosniaks are descendent from Serbs.
Svetlana (Serbs) and Amira (Bosniaks) are family, very close family.
They share a racial, cultural, and linguistic heritage. But Bosniaks
were never Orthodox Christians who referred to themselves as Serbs,
they were never even the acknowledged subjects of the Byzantine
Emperor. Sisters, yes, but Svetlana is in no way our Mother.
Make sense?
Edited by Mila
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
 |
erci
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:31 |
I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak
language different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same
but have a few differences?
|
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
|
 |
erci
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1426
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:32 |
thanks for the infos, yes they are all clear
|
"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"
|
 |
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 16:41 |
Originally posted by erci
I know there are Bosniak to Osmanlica dictionaries.Is Bosniak
language different from Hirvat or serbian or they are the same
but have a few differences?
|
All three languages are more or less the same, especially in a proper,
academic sense. They can be very different - but only if we're speaking
in slang. For example...to say "Hey, how are you?" can go so many
different ways...
Croatian: Bok, kako si?
Serbian: Zdravo, sta ima novo?
Bosnian: Selam, kak'si bejbi! Sta'ma!?
But all Slavic languages are more or less the same. Any Bosniak can
understand spoken Russian well enough to know what is being talked
about, even if they've never heard a word of Russian before in their
lives. Only Ukrainian and Hungarian are truly unique and difficult for
non-Ukrainians and non-Hungarians to understand at all.
In terms of actual differences...there's different accents and letter combinations. For example "News"...
Croatian: Vijesti
Serbian: Vesti
Bosnian: Vijesti/Vjesti in some areas
Then you have more Turkish and Arabic words present in Bosnian and Serbian than in Croatia. Also months are different.
Croatian: December = Sjecanje
Bosnian: December = Decembar
Etc, etc, etc.
Its like...
Croatian = British English
Serbian = American English
Bosnian = African American Slang
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
 |