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Turkish "Teke" clan?

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish "Teke" clan?
    Posted: 06-Sep-2008 at 10:53
I've noticed in a recent topic ("Traditional Music from the Turkic World") a link to throat singing video of Turkish "Teke" clan. Since "Teke" is one of the 9 major Turkmen tribes, I was wondering about the Turkish clan's name and history. Does anyone know about Turkish Tekes?

Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2008 at 11:38
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2008 at 14:28
The Teke clan formed two beyliks in Anatolia, the Hamidogullari Beylik around the Isparta-Burdur region and the Teke Beylik its neighbour to the south in the Antalya region.
 
During the Ottoman era the region became known as the "Teke Sanjak" or Teke-eli Sancagi, the Hamidogullari were a branch of the Teke's.
 
Teke have 18 recorded sub-branch tribes in the regions,
 
Sernaz,
Gökçe,
Tufaz,
Toktamış,
Karaahmet,
Tutamış,
Meriş,
Ötemiş,
Ayak,
Tongiç,
Daş,
Aziz,
Alseki,
Karatekeli,
Karaca,
Bahşi,
Akseki
Burgaz
 
Teke's have many dances, folk music, oral traitions and a rich culture in the region.
 
I'll find more information out for you soon.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 16:49

Maaaaaaan, Turkmen Tekke tribe is only 500-year-old. The idea that Turkmen Tekke migrated to Turkey some 700-800 years ago is just incredible.



Edited by gok_toruk - 09-Sep-2008 at 16:53
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 18:49
guess the teke clan in Turkmenistan is an offshoot of teh one in Turkey then
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 21:39
Teke are attached to one of the oldest Oghuz clans the Salur, the Teke's two largest branches are the Otamysh and Toktamish both which are found among the Teke in Turkey.
 
The Teke arn't recorded in 22 Kashgarli Mahmud or 24 Rashid al-din records of the Oghuz clans, Abul-Ghazi writes that the Teke are descended from the Salur. The Teke may have not been recorded as being an independant clan until later however, it doesn't mean they didn't exist prior to these first records.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 11:37

It is believed that modern day Tekes are descended from Salur Qazan Bek (the great Salur's forefather), but their existance as a tribal union (and under the name) "Teke" is at most 500-year-old. How do you believe they could have moved to Turkey 700-800 years ago - while they were not counted a tribe under the unique name "Teke"?

I don't even believe there exist Tekes in Turkey; let alone to count them the same with Turkmen Tekes. It really seems rather a Pan-Turkic prapaganda. Turkmen Tekes were Salurs 500 years ago. And, now, you're trying to prove that, a part of Salurs (that are Tekes today) migrated to Turkey 700-800 years ago to be called Teke. And those who remained in Turkmenistan, chose the same name, 200-300 years later. 

It's just incredible.



Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Sep-2008 at 15:34
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 21:36
The Teke in Turkey trace descendancy to the Salur aswell.
 
The Salur Turkmens who migrated, settled and created colonies in Turkey had eight groups, Usta, Karamanli, Yomut, Akkoyunlu/Akcakoyunlu, Sarikli, Karakoyunlu/Karacakoyunlu, Hizir and Teke.
 
There are few records of Teke prior to 500 years back, however, they had two beyliks in Anatolia, there must be an explanation for this, one theory is that during the Mongol expansion Oghuz tribes seperated some went West, others south to Afganistan and others remained in the Turkmenistan region. During this period if the Teke existed as a branch of the Salur they may have been able to gain power in Anatolia after the power vacuum caused by the collapse of the Seljuks.
 
This has nothing to do with propoganda, people in Anatolia didn't one day start calling themselves Turkmen and talking Turkish for no reason. There were many Turkmen beyliks across Anatolia.
 
Teke and Hamidoglu beyliks were Teke, Karaman Beylik was Salur, the Kadi Burhanettin beylik was founded by Salurs, this is all recorded in history.


Edited by Bulldog - 10-Sep-2008 at 21:42
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 06:08

Recorded in history? Could you please bring proofs? Also what documents are you referring to when you say "There are few records of Teke prior to 500 years back"?

Only some minor Oghuz tribes migrated to Turkey, some 700-800 years ago. In fact, that's why you don't observe Central Asian looking Tekes or Salurs, their culture, or their dialect in Anatolia; because if they were the majority, for sure they would have preserved their appearance, their culture and their language; but you see them all Greek/Iranian looking. About their language, Kashghari mentioned two different languages under the same general name "Oghuz", we talked about.

Are you trying to make a connection between two distinct people only by their similar name? So, Kazak "Kerey" and Turkmen "Kerey" are the same people? And Ozbek "Daz" and Turkmen "Daz" are of the same origin? What about Hazara tribe "Jaughur", since there exist Turkmen people who are called "Yaughur"? Could I conclude that Turkmens and Kazaks (and Ozbeks and Hazaras) are the same people?

Now you're saying "The Teke in Turkey trace descendancy to the Salur aswell". Tribes like Teke and Yomut or Kökleng are new tribal foundations. To bridge them to Turkey is just a Pan-Turkic prapaganda. You mean two groups of Salurs in two different locations with a time difference of like 300 years, chose the same name "Teke"?

You continue Bulldog; but it seems a Pan-Turkic prapaganda - unless you bring documents.



Edited by gok_toruk - 11-Sep-2008 at 06:35
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 13:35
 
The early beyliks of Anatolia.
 
The beylik era is a period of history which cannot be dismissed, ignored or called propoganda.
 
Gok_Toruk
Only some minor Oghuz tribes migrated to Turkey, some 700-800 years ago.
 
Minor Oghuz tribes?
 
Cepni, Afshar, Kayi, Salur, Bayat, Kinik, Igdir, Eymur, Cavuldur etc etc are all major Oghuz Turk clans not minor, they are listed by Kashgarli Mahmud and Rashid al-din.
 
Also there were various reasons for these migrations.
 
 - The Seljuks moved unruly tribes to frontier border terretories to raid Byzantine lands, this is how so many Oghuz Turkmens found thereselves on the borders of Anatolia.
 
Most of the Seljuk clans still lived according to their Central Asian nomadic traditions and tended to acknowledge the Sultan’s authority only when they were forced to, or it suited their interests.  Their raiding and constant feuding made them as much a nuisance to the Great Seljuks as to their neighbours, so to preserve order the most unruly Turcoman clans were pushed to the borders of the Sultanate where they could be encouraged to raid and plunder infidel territory.[33]  Consequently Seljuk raiding into Anatolia continued unabated. 
 
 - The collapse of the Byzantine establishment in Anatolia resulted in a power vacuum filled by the Seljuks and the Oghuz clansmen and armies.
 
The Byzantine civil war had continued for ten years and completely exhausted Byzantine resources in Anatolia.  While the Byzantines had been busy fighting each other the Turks had advanced into a power vacuum, initially as raiders, later as mercenaries and finally as settlers.  They had successfully exploited Byzantine factionalism by supporting various usurpers as their interests dictated and had profited immensely.  By 1081AD the Seljuk’s occupied virtually the entire Anatolian plateau from Armenia in the east to Bithynia in the west and Suleyman occupied Nicea as his nominal capital. 
 
 To the original Turkoman raiders, the virtually undefended great estates and their immense herds of livestock were targets too tempting to ignore.  As they plundered their way across Anatolia the scattered population fled westwards or to the cities and coasts, virtually abandoning the plateau to the Turks.[65]  
 
 - The collapse of the Seljuk state caused another power vacuum again filled by new-comming Turkmen tribes who this time formed beyliks and atabeks across the region.
 
 - The Mongol expansion caused a large movement of Oghuz tribes being forced West to Anatolia.
 
The Question of the Emergence of the Ottoman State" in International Journal of Turkish Studies, vol. II, 1980, pp. 71-79

The spectacular Turkish expansion into western Anatolia can be linked in the last analysis to the Mongol invasion and rule of the Middle East in the thirteenth century. There is considerable historical evidence supporting the view that this invasion caused an exodus of both the Turcoman tribes and the settled populations from Transoxiana, Iran, and Azerbaijan into Asia Minor. In the wake of the spread of Mongol control over Asia Minor (recognition of Mongol suzerainty in 1235; the Mongol invasion of Central Anatolia under Bayju in 1243; and, finally, the establishment of direct Mongol administration after 1277) a massive population movement toward the western frontier zone of the Seljukid state of Anatolia was set under way, and this continued throughout the thirteenth century.

The important stages of this movement are known. In the 1230s the Mongols drove out a number of Turcoman tribes from Maragha and Arran and from the Mughan piains in Azerbaijan, an area that was to become the favorite winter quarters of the Mongol tribal forces in Iran. Along with the Mongol pressure, the search for good pasture lands for their herds in marginal areas and the opportunity for booty raids into neighboring Christian lands led many of the Turcoman tribes to the mountain ranges in the remote frontier (udj) zones. Pressed by the Turcoman demands for yurt (a delimited area with summer and winter quarters) and confronted by their depredations on agricultural areas, the Seljukid central government hastened to drive them out toward the frontier areas, where they formed a large Turcoman belt in the northern, southern, and western mountain ranges of Asia Minor. In 1240, however, a terrible Turcoman insurrection shook the Seljukid state to its foundations

In 1256 the Mongol general Bayju asked the Seljukid sultan, Izzeddin Kaykawus II, to assign him summer and winter quarters in Anatolia for his army tribes to settle in. This was after Hulagu Khan had ordered the evacuation of Arran and Mughan plains to make way for the Mongol imperial army. The sultan rejected Bayju's demand. The ensuing battle ended with the defeat of the Seljukid army and their evacuation of the best pasture lands in the Tokat-Amasya area, including the lush Kazova plain. This event brought a new flow of Turcoman immigrants into the western border areas. Kaykawus eventually fled to Byzantium (1261), but the Turcomans continued their support for him and his sons against the Mongols. The following thirty years were an era of struggle in Anatolia -- a struggle that brought still more immigration. The figures provided by the Arab geographer Ibn Said (d. 1274 or 1286) give at least a general idea of the relative distribution of the Turcomans on these frontiers: 200,000 tents in the Tonguzlu (or Ladik, ancient Laodicaea) region, 100,000 tents in the Kastamoni (Paphlagonia), and 30,000 tents in the Kutahya (Cotyaeum).

The next period of massive population movement in Asia Minor began in 1277 when the native Seljukid aristocracy and their Turcoman supporters allied themselves with the Mamluks of Egypt and rose up to fight a Holy War against the ''impious" domination of the Mongols. Now the aggressive spirit of jihad, resuscitated by the victor over the Mongols, Sultan Baybars of Egypt, appeared to generate within Anatolia intense enthusiasm for the battle against the Mongols, especially among the frontier Turcomans Hard pressed by the Mongol forces, the most warlike and mobile elements of the frontier Turcomans moved further west and south and directed their energies for Holy War in raids (ghaza) against the inadequately protected territories of Byzantium in western Anatolia and in Lesser Armenia in Cilicia. In order to establish direct Mongol control in Seljukid Anatolia, fresh Mongol forces, actually whole tribes, were sent to settle there after 1277, again mostly in the Amasya-Tokat region. By the end of the thirteenth century these forces amounted to five tumen's (50,000 men) and several ming's (one ming was 1,000 men).

In about 1330, Al-'Umari's two sources estimated that the sixteen Turcoman principalities established by that time could mobilize over half-a-million cavalrymen -- the figure given by Balaban the Genoes -- or over a quarter-of-a-million -- according to Haydar al-Uryan.'' In addition, they mentioned an unspecified number of infantry. The figures were obviously greatly exaggerated. However, if we remember that the majority of these forces consisted of Turcoman tribesmen, the figure given for each individual principality can be interpreted as the relative number of fighting tribesmen dependent upon a particular lord or ruler. It is noteworthy that the highest figures in these accounts were given for the Mentese-oghlu (100,000 in Caria), the Aydin-oghlu (70,000 in lonia), the Osman-oghlu (Ottomans -- 40,000 in Bythinia), the Karasi-oghlu (over 40,000 in Mysia), and the Sarukhan-oghlu (18,000 in Lydia) -- all of whom were operating in the area captured from the Byzantines in western Anatolia between 1260 and 1330.

To sum up, a new Turkey with great demographic potential and a heightened Holy War ideology, was emerging in the old Seljukid frontier zone east of a line from the mouth of the Dalaman (Indos) River to that of the Sakarya (Sangarius). A thrust by this explosive frontier society against the neighboring Byzantine territory in western Anatolia and in the Balkans was almost inevitable. The expansion was accomplished in the following stages: (I) it began with the seasonal movements of Turcoman nomadic groups into the Byzantine coastal plains; (2) it was intensified by the organization of small raiding groups under ghazi leaders, mostly of tribal ongin, for booty raids or for employment as mercenaries; (3) it continued with the emergence of successful leaders capable of bringing together under their clientship local chiefs to conguer and then establish beyliks (principalities) in conquered lands on the model of the principalities founded in the old Seljukid frontier zone; and finally (4) with the involvement of these ghazi-beyliks, with their definite political and economic aims, in the regional struggle for supremacy in the Aegean and in the Balkans, the previously undirected thrusts of the war bands became focused on new goals.

 
 - The Timurid era, tribes were relocated, tribes were fleeing, migrating and those who allied with Timur filling a new power vacuum.
 
There was not a single migration after the battle of Malizgirt, this was a continuos migration and resulted in the region being called "Turchia" not be Turks but by Europeans.
 
Although incorporating significant Byzantine and Persian influences, in the end, Turkish culture proved its resilience.  Both Christian and Islamic travellers were to comment on the distinctively Turkish culture of Turchia, as Anatolia came to be called. 
 
According to the Ottoman tax archives "Müdevver ve Kuyud-ı Kadime", in a study conducted by Prof Dr Yusuf Halacoglu, his book will soon be published, 37,000 Oghuz Turkmen tribes were recorded, the total number of tents were 1,140000 in the 16th/17th Centuries.
 
 
 
In fact, that's why you don't observe Central Asian looking Tekes or Salurs, their culture, or their dialect in Anatolia; because if they were the majority, for sure they would have preserved their appearance, their culture and their language; but you see them all Greek/Iranian looking.
 
If you go to Turkey, visit Teke and Salur villages and towns in the Antalya, Isparta region, you'll find a well preserved regional culture and find many in the region were nomadic or semi-nomadic up to half a century ago.
 
Also if you read the history of the tribes they had many rebellions against Ottoman rule as the Ottomans tried to settle them making them more sedentary.
 
And regarding looks, what is Iranian looking? there are Persians, Arabs, Kurds, Turks etc in Iran, I've seen blonde haired Iranians and very dark skinned Iranians. People in Turkmenistan arn't all identical either, there are also blonde haired Turkmens and all different shades and colours so this argument is pointless.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
So, Kazak "Kerey" and Turkmen "Kerey" are the same people? And Ozbek "Daz" and Turkmen "Daz" are of the same origin? What about Hazara tribe "Jaughur", since there exist Turkmen people who are called "Yaughur"?
 
Why do you find this suprising? these clans and tribes existed before the modern borders and terms existing today in Central Asia, there are Salur in China, Afganistan, Tukrmenistan, Turkey etc
 


Edited by Bulldog - 11-Sep-2008 at 14:13
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 19:07

Oghuzes always had 9 major Oghuzes, not 22 or 24; we were called 9 Oghuzes, not 22 or 24 Oghuzes. It's like Tatars: they had 30 tribes totally, but because only 9 of them were major tribes and had political existance, they were called 9 Tatars. Most of those tribes mentioned by Kashghari are minor tribes. 

I've been to Turkey a couple of times. I haven't seen anyone called Teke or Salur in Anatliya. Just a glance at those tour leaders and their offices, and you'll find lots of Turkmens (and Uzbeks) in Turkey, SPECIALLY in Antaliya (in fact, one of them, Bakhram Ownyq, of Odeon) is a good friend of mine. None of them has encountered with a so-called Turkish Salur or Teke. What's the culture you're talking about? Even the nomadic-like Turkish people in eastern parts of the country still seem to be a European/Western in culture (compred to Central Asian nomads)

And, where are their language?

You're off topic. All this article you posted (and a part is still to be published) talks about Seljuks and their migration to Anatolia and wars - but not about Turkish Tekes and their relationship with Turkmenistan Tekes. And your articles mentions 37000 Oghuz Turkmen tribes??? Who believes this? 

You continue bulldog; I don't. At least, I can't believe 37000 Turkmen tribes. 



Edited by gok_toruk - 13-Sep-2008 at 10:29
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Sep-2008 at 19:53
Gok_Toruk
Oghuzes always had 9 major Oghuzes, not 22 or 24 Oghuzes; we were called 9 Oghuzes, not 22 or 24 Oghuzes. It's like Tatars: they had 30 tribes totally, but because only 9 of them were major tribes and had political existance, they were called 9 Tatars. Most of those tribes mentioned by Kashghari are minor tribes. 
 
The Tokuz Oghuz is a theory, there is also the On oq theory and the theory that the two mixed.
 
The tribes mentioned by Kashgari were those of the Oghuz-Yagbu state, split into Uch Ok and Boz-ok.
 
Gok_Toruk
I've been to Turkey a couple of times. I haven't seen anyone called Teke or Salur in Anatliya.
 
The region was called, Teke Sanjak until the republic era.
There are countless villages called and established by Salurs and Teke.
 
The beyliks, tribes claiming descendancy from Salurs and so on is either a big coincidence or has other reasons.
 
Gok_Toruk
And your articles talk about 37000 Oghuz Turkmen tribes. Who believes this?
 
Its in the Ottoman archives, the Ottomans being so beurocratic listed all the tribes down to how large their herds were in order to collect tax.
 
 
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