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And McCain's VP pick is...

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: And McCain's VP pick is...
    Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 00:30
I firmly believe her "success" and charisma are due to her looks.  She may in fact be a good politician, but she is not qualified for the national ticket.
 
 
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 00:55
Well... she is good looking.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 02:15
Besides, ain't there something a bit strange in the fact that they piked someone from Alaska. The only short supply she had to deal with while in office is polar bear. She gave away millions of dollars in tax rebate, that's the richest state in the Union as well as being tiny in terms of population. The only real challenge any Alaska governor has to face are infrastructure, and we know how badly she failed there. So not only has she little experience but the little she has is potentially harmful, you don't rule the US the way you'd rule Saudi Arabia if you catch my drift. 
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  Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 02:28
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

I firmly believe her "success" and charisma are due to her looks.  She may in fact be a good politician, but she is not qualified for the national ticket.
 
 


I'd imagine McCain would think that it's his Dan Quayle in a skirt. And we all know how he use to feel about Mr Quayle. "I can't believe a guy that handsome wouldn't have some impact."
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 03:34
Originally posted by King John

Personally as an American from the "liberal, elitist northeast" I would have to agree with gcle. All Americans have seen their rights eroded. The Patriot Act is the major contributer to such erosions. For a party that came to power preaching little government the Republicans have sure done a great job of instilling BIG government.
 
 
I would be happy to respond King John.
 
Both the Democrat and Republican parties seem to be onboard with the patriot act, atleast that is how it appears to me? So i don't think it is a party-specific issue? If any rights have indeed been eroded, judging from my American history, it is quickly righted with repeals against it. Seeing that it is not the first time to have taken place (Probably a dozen times or so... with this one being the more questionable of recent?), especially in a confusing time of war or conflict; Therefor... it's not like it is without precedent and doesn't cause me any concern as of yet. That is why i don't think the character that makes up this country has changed that much.. if at all? I think only the world's understanding or actual experience of what it has always been like (My assumption of course) for this country during times of great international stress. I suppose we can thank television and the web for the speed of dissemination & informational transfer in the modern world? However, as much as i am not afraid as of current, is in part due to our multitude of critics, in which... i am thankfully greatful  that there are people out there who are keeping an eye on it for any signs of abuse, no matter if it is suspicous on how they play the political angle on it! I still appreciate all the paranoia to a degree!
 
   About bigger government, i have to be honest. At that time, in 2000, i liked Bush's message of less military involvement and nation building in the world & perhaps less government spending? In 2004, i held my nose and voted for him too follow through on what he started in the foreign sphere. Domestically, i think i realized roughly around that time of the 2004 elections(?), that between the two parties, one was just a tad less bigger on more government than the other. Now i tend too think even the Republicans are abandoning that position, leaving it entirely to the Libertarian party to be the only ones who still hold onto the prinicples of smaller government. The evolution of my political support goes something like this... I started out liking Fred Thompson, then switched my support, albeit... lukewarmly, to Mr. McCain. Then i found myself even underwhelmed by his performance so far, that is before Gov. Palin. Now i am not sure which party i might vote for this Novermber, The Libertarians or the Republicans? Whatever the reasoning for throwing Gov. Palin on the ticket, it seems to be working in reenergizing the GOP base!
 
Why is it that anytime somebody disagrees with another person's political views, the disagreer immediately resorts to calling the other person's argument propaganda? Simply put a disagreement is not propaganda, especially if the disagreeing point has facts behind it.
 
Well.. if i came across or even stated an accussation of someone's thought as being propaganda (I'm sure i have somewhere on the Web?), then i offer my apologies for any extreme rudeness on my part, but no apology for my belief.
 
Why do we use the word "propaganda" if we disagree with one another? I'm afraid to joke around with this subject, because people might actually take me seriously? Persoanlly, i'm not always do dure... but when i use it, it's not out of avoidance of an issue, or perhaps it is too a degree, but i would guess it is probably the lack of any originality for an arguement when i possibly find myself using the word when it sounds like an echo of any particular party line, verbatim that is...; Much like i suppose when it is used against me or the beliefs i happen to agree with. I can't doubt that i can be a biased person, and don't think i am that much of a fool who denies it! Other then what i had mentioned, i can't think of anything else too add?
 
Maybe more intelligent posters here could give you a much better perspective then i can? Anyways... i hoped this helped a little?
 
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 04:45
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Hopefully these public attitudes will develop into a wedge that capable leaders (of, say, Russia) will drive into NATO and pry the both sides of Atlantic apart, weakening their hold on the planet.
 
All has been revealed. LOL
 
Actually, whatever label one wants to put on it, if it involves defending the country in which I live (USA) and to which I pay my taxes, I support a well-equipped and trained military.  So I guess I am not shying away from the label no matter if it comes from a European elitist or an international socialist.
 
As far as "counter arguments" go, it is not as if either side would agree that they were proven wrong if verifiably true ones were put forward.  Each likes to claim that they are putting forward unassailable counter arguments but would never admit error.  Such is the postmodern, relativistic world in which we presently live.
 
actaully this is happening - the wedge i mean. Reasonable and realistic 'old' Europe vs dummy spitting washington and Eastern 'new' European paranoids on Russia. The election could reverse this, but if McCain is anything like Bush then maybe what Bey writes will happen.
 
as for the arguments on how your not militaristic, apart from Pike narrowing the definition into somthing like 'we are not like North Korea', nothing has been tabled against Grahams case directly. For a western democracy it certianly seems so, compared to its peers.
 
If you want to defend your country you already have a national Guard, and as it seems a well armed society anyway with strong gun rights. Otherwise you can comfortably do it with a quarter of what you have in the normal military (its not a defense force ).  i also support a strong national defense force but that defition of 'strong' and even words like 'defend' can mean many things. Many in the US belive they're defending the country by fighting in Iraq....you dont have to be European 'elitist' or commie to argue over such flawed logic.
 


Edited by Leonidas - 10-Sep-2008 at 04:47
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  Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 06:55
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Hopefully these public attitudes will develop into a wedge that capable leaders (of, say, Russia) will drive into NATO and pry the both sides of Atlantic apart, weakening their hold on the planet.
 
All has been revealed. LOL
 
Actually, whatever label one wants to put on it, if it involves defending the country in which I live (USA) and to which I pay my taxes, I support a well-equipped and trained military.  So I guess I am not shying away from the label no matter if it comes from a European elitist or an international socialist.
 
As far as "counter arguments" go, it is not as if either side would agree that they were proven wrong if verifiably true ones were put forward.  Each likes to claim that they are putting forward unassailable counter arguments but would never admit error.  Such is the postmodern, relativistic world in which we presently live.
 
actaully this is happening - the wedge i mean. Reasonable and realistic 'old' Europe vs dummy spitting washington and Eastern 'new' European paranoids on Russia. The election could reverse this, but if McCain is anything like Bush then maybe what Bey writes will happen.
 
as for the arguments on how your not militaristic, apart from Pike narrowing the definition into somthing like 'we are not like North Korea', nothing has been tabled against Grahams case directly. For a western democracy it certianly seems so, compared to its peers.
 
If you want to defend your country you already have a national Guard, and as it seems a well armed society anyway with strong gun rights. Otherwise you can comfortably do it with a quarter of what you have in the normal military (its not a defense force ).  i also support a strong national defense force but that defition of 'strong' and even words like 'defend' can mean many things. Many in the US belive they're defending the country by fighting in Iraq....you dont have to be European 'elitist' or commie to argue over such flawed logic.
 
 
Ok... our liberal friends and allies want an explanation for this supposive monstrosity they are currently faced with, then i suggest people are to go and look it up in your governments archives or ask your grandparents? Who better to explain why the US is still involved in the world? It's like people expected it too remain small & militarily weak while facing a powerful military advesary, such as the USSR?
 
Ummm yeah, well if it ever came down to a shooting war, we could always have shot back with daisies Ermm go figure...
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 07:30
Originally posted by Leonidas

If you want to defend your country you already have a national Guard, and as it seems a well armed society anyway with strong gun rights. Otherwise you can comfortably do it with a quarter of what you have in the normal military (its not a defense force ).  i also support a strong national defense force but that defition of 'strong' and even words like 'defend' can mean many things. Many in the US belive they're defending the country by fighting in Iraq....you dont have to be European 'elitist' or commie to argue over such flawed logic.
 
 
 

About this talk

In this bracingly honest talk, international security strategist Thomas Barnett outlines a post-Cold War solution for the foundering U.S. military that is both sensible and breathtaking in its simplicity: Break it in two.

http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 12:11
Originally posted by Panther

Originally posted by King John

Personally as an American from the "liberal, elitist northeast" I would have to agree with gcle. All Americans have seen their rights eroded. The Patriot Act is the major contributer to such erosions. For a party that came to power preaching little government the Republicans have sure done a great job of instilling BIG government.
 
 
I would be happy to respond King John.
 
Both the Democrat and Republican parties seem to be onboard with the patriot act, atleast that is how it appears to me? So i don't think it is a party-specific issue?
It's not totally party-specific. There are libertarians on the right who are against many provisions of the Act, and there are Democrat conservatives who are for it. On the whole though, opposition to the act was mainly from Democrats and the support for it mainly Republican.
 
Things are rarely party-specific in the US because the parties aren't cohesive enough.
 
If any rights have indeed been eroded, judging from my American history, it is quickly righted with repeals against it.
Not if the populace puts up with it. Whether recent legislation erodes old rights is not susceptible to majority vote. I don't think many gun control extremists would accept their rights were not being eroded if gun ownership were forbidden, even if a large majority of the people were in favour of forbidding it.
 
A large number of the people who complain about eroding second amendment rights are keen enough to erode ninth amendment ones.
 
Why is it that anytime somebody disagrees with another person's political views, the disagreer immediately resorts to calling the other person's argument propaganda? Simply put a disagreement is not propaganda, especially if the disagreeing point has facts behind it.
 
Well.. if i came across or even stated an accussation of someone's thought as being propaganda (I'm sure i have somewhere on the Web?), then i offer my apologies for any extreme rudeness on my part, but no apology for my belief.
I don't think you did. I don't think King John had you in mind.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 12:21
Originally posted by Panther

 
Ok... our liberal friends and allies want an explanation for this supposive monstrosity they are currently faced with, then i suggest people are to go and look it up in your governments archives or ask your grandparents?
Who was asking for an explanation? The issue was about what the situation is, not why it's that way. Though I'd agree that would be also an interesting discussion, a more germane one is what it is likely to lead to.
 
And, as it happens, I don't really need to ask my grandparents Unhappy
Who better to explain why the US is still involved in the world? It's like people expected it too remain small & militarily weak while facing a powerful military advesary, such as the USSR?
Nope. I don't think anyone here is talking about the '50s and '60s except as a distraction from the point. The US was reluctant to get into 1914-18,  it was reluctant to get into 1937-45, and I also think it was initially reluctant to get into the Cold War (look how disbanded units had to be hastily recalled to the colours in 1950 for Korea).
 
It did of course get into all of them and decisively. But that is a major difference in attitude from that of the US today - what, for instance, happened to the 'peace dividend' that was supposed to occur after the USSR collapsed?
 
Ummm yeah, well if it ever came down to a shooting war, we could always have shot back with daisies Ermm go figure...
I'd have thought throwing a few nuclear missiles around would be more effective. That's what has put a stop to major wars for the past 60 years. 


Edited by gcle2003 - 10-Sep-2008 at 12:22
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 13:17
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Originally posted by Leonidas

If you want to defend your country you already have a national Guard, and as it seems a well armed society anyway with strong gun rights. Otherwise you can comfortably do it with a quarter of what you have in the normal military (its not a defense force ).  i also support a strong national defense force but that defition of 'strong' and even words like 'defend' can mean many things. Many in the US belive they're defending the country by fighting in Iraq....you dont have to be European 'elitist' or commie to argue over such flawed logic.
 
 
 

About this talk

In this bracingly honest talk, international security strategist Thomas Barnett outlines a post-Cold War solution for the foundering U.S. military that is both sensible and breathtaking in its simplicity: Break it in two.

great video. common sense
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 16:19
All has been revealed. LOL
 
Damn, my cover is blown! I am outed as an anti-imperialist!  
 
Actually, whatever label one wants to put on it, if it involves defending the country in which I live (USA) and to which I pay my taxes, I support a well-equipped and trained military.  So I guess I am not shying away from the label no matter if it comes from a European elitist or an international socialist.
 
This is the revelation, not what I said. You support 'defending' the USA by maintaining a super-military and invading Iraq, of course you are a militarist.  
 
I will believe the US is not militaristic the day I won't read such disgusting lame justification attempts mixed with stale propaganda lies as the following: 
 
With it's death, there was no mourning in the world, least of all by the UN, except for the millions who fled from the communists death squads and their reeducation camps, who fled in rinky dink boats or any other way they could by any means necessary! Hence, the US military did the job required of it, the politicans, otoh... certainly did not!!!
 
In other words, 'the commies killed everyone, we tried to save the gooks, our armee did alles it could and won the krieg, but it was stabbed in the back by the jews (ee sorry, the politicians)...'  Outside of the Fox-TV timeline, the world knows that the USA killed millions in their South East Asian colonies to keep their Empire. And oh, you lost the Vietnam war, and did not particularly win the Korean War either.
 
actaully this is happening - the wedge i mean. Reasonable and realistic 'old' Europe vs dummy spitting washington and Eastern 'new' European paranoids on Russia. The election could reverse this, but if McCain is anything like Bush then maybe what Bey writes will happen.
 
Yes, but the public opinion means little in the Western so-called democracy. Vast majority of the Europeans opposed the Iraq war, but half the governments sent troops over there, and the other half provided logistical support.
 
Let's see if any real political results will come about in the future. Such as breaking up of NATO or the EU. Or Europe growing balls (and an alternative joint military- what happened to that project?) I don't actually think these will happen, but the pressure on the governments will surely increase.
 
apart from Pike narrowing the definition into somthing like 'we are not like North Korea'
 
You nailed it. Discuss their imperialism with the Americans and they are invariably reduced to 'yes, but we are better than the nazis'. So I want to tell to all Yankees worldwide through the medium of All Empires: yes, you are better than the nazis, now get your asses the f**k back to the US and leave the world alone.
 
Why do we use the word "propaganda" if we disagree with one another?
 
For instance blaming the American aggression in Vietnam on the Vietnamese people is not an opinion. It is propaganda.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 16:40
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

This is the revelation, not what I said. You support 'defending' the USA by maintaining a super-military and invading Iraq, of course you are a militarist.
 
When did I say that I supported the invasion of Iraq above?  For the record, I think the "occupation" (to use your brand of terminology) was absolutely botched and a waste of lives on both sides, not to mention tax payer dollars in the USA.  The focus (or again, the imperialist conquest) should have been on Afghanistan the whole time.  One more factoid, which I doubt you care about, I really do not like the Bush administration or the Democrats; they might as well be the same party as far as I am concerned.
 
A quick question for you.  How would your communist superstate rule the world?  Not through a well-funded military and capitalistic economy?  Or would it be some kind of naive, idealistic communist utopia which occupies a territory the size of Lichtenstein or Luxembourg and never meddles in anyone else's business?
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I will believe the US is not militaristic the day I won't read such disgusting lame justification attempts mixed with stale propaganda lies as the following:
 
I would appreciate it if you would put the name of the person you are quoting in the box instead of trying to lump us all into the same pre-fabricated bin of Capitalist Imperialist Fascist Scum.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

You nailed it. Discuss their imperialism with the Americans and they are invariably reduced to 'yes, but we are better than the nazis'. So I want to tell to all Yankees worldwide through the medium of All Empires: yes, you are better than the nazis, now get your asses the f**k back to the US and leave the world alone.
 
Such enlightened language for a member of the intelligensia.  So who will fill the void once the Capitalist Imperialist ascendency of the USA recedes?  Will the world suddenly see the light of Marx and the religion of materialist dialectic and live in peace and harmony?


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 10-Sep-2008 at 16:42
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 16:41
Originally posted by Panther

Well... she is good looking.


So is Paris Hilton, and frankly, it seems that Paris has a lot more accomplishments

At least Paris doesn't go around lying about her support for Alaskan pork and neglecting her new-born child. It was great that he had Down Syndrome until he started breathing; then it was time to shove him to the side to do something better.

If she treats her own son like that, how should we expect her to treat the country?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 18:41
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

A quick question for you.  How would your communist superstate rule the world? 
I don't particularly line up with Beylerbeyi, as he at least is sharp enough to realise. But where did he say anything about 'ruling the world'? The only country that seems to have ambitions to 'rule the world' at the moment is the USA.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

A quick question for you.  How would your communist superstate rule the world? 
I don't particularly line up with Beylerbeyi, as he at least is sharp enough to realise. But where did he say anything about 'ruling the world'? The only country that seems to have ambitions to 'rule the world' at the moment is the USA.
 
Please don't seed-pick my responses.  Read the rest and then reply.  I was pointing out the naive idealism in thinking that once the terrible USA is knocked off its "imperial" pedestal that no other nation, capitalist or communist or whatever, would not then try to take its place.
 
I wonder what kind of reactions the world, after being downtrodden for so long under American imperialist domination, would react to a non-capitalist, non-western, country taking its place as the imperialist aggressor?
 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 19:00
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

A quick question for you.  How would your communist superstate rule the world? 
I don't particularly line up with Beylerbeyi, as he at least is sharp enough to realise. But where did he say anything about 'ruling the world'? The only country that seems to have ambitions to 'rule the world' at the moment is the USA.
 
Please don't seed-pick my responses. 
Then don't put up straw men, and try and avoid rhetoric.
Read the rest and then reply. 
I did.
I was pointing out the naive idealism in thinking that once the terrible USA is knocked off its "imperial" pedestal that no other nation, capitalist or communist or whatever, would not then try to take its place.
Why is it not naive to think they wouldn't? Some other nation might I suppose, but at the moment no other nation seems to be in a mind or a position to do so. That's why what is needed is collective security.
 
Europe has pretty well learned that lesson.
 
I wonder what kind of reactions the world, after being downtrodden for so long under American imperialist domination, would react to a non-capitalist, non-western, country taking its place as the imperialist aggressor?
Oppose it. If you don't believe in militarism, it doesn't mean you have to be a pacifist. It means you have to concentrate on defence not aggression.
 
But what has that got to do with the current situation? You seem to operate on the basis that US domination (not that it does de facto dominate) would automatically be good, whereas you only have to look at the US and compare it with other societies to realise that the US system is inferior, certainly on many counts, in providing a secure, peaceful, prosperous and liberated lifestyle.


Edited by gcle2003 - 10-Sep-2008 at 19:02
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 19:15
Originally posted by gcle2003

Then don't put up straw men, and try and avoid rhetoric.
 
What straw men have I set up?  For what party or group have I been acting as rhetorician?  Surely not the Bush administration for I already said what I thought of it.  I have also acknowledged the mistakes the USA has made; I do not believe it is above reproach.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

I did.
 
It sure did not seem like it when you did not include the qualifications and expansion I made on the statement about "ruling the world."
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Why is it not naive to think they wouldn't? Some other nation might I suppose, but at the moment no other nation seems to be in a mind or a position to do so. That's why what is needed is collective security.
 
Europe has pretty well learned that lesson.
 
That statement pretty much says it all.  Political correctness and unequivocated "tolerance" has surely blinded you and who knows how many others in Europe if its citizens think this way.  How can you not see what is happening in the streets, religious establishments, and hospitals of Europe if you are living there?  Surely you have read the news and see what is happening in Britain and France at least.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

But what has that got to do with the current situation? You seem to operate on the basis that US domination (not that it does de facto dominate) would automatically be good, whereas you only have to look at the US and compare it with other societies to realise that the US system is inferior, certainly on many counts, in providing a secure, peaceful, prosperous and liberated lifestyle.
 
What are the alternatives that you would put forward?  Perhaps the European Union or maybe some other universal body put together by Russia or China?
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 19:41
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

 
That statement pretty much says it all.  Political correctness and unequivocated "tolerance" has surely blinded you and who knows how many others in Europe if its citizens think this way.  How can you not see what is happening in the streets, religious establishments, and hospitals of Europe if you are living there?  Surely you have read the news and see what is happening in Britain and France at least.
 
 
 
I'm curious. Maybe missed some important trendy news too.
 
What is going on with Britain and France regarding hospitals and relgious establishments?
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2008 at 20:12
Since we are deviating from the original topic I'd like to share some figures from European sentiments over this election.
 
A European poll conducted over the summer has some interesting numbers for the American presidential candidates.
 
By significant margins, Europeans have high hopes for a potential Obama administration, according to a Transatlantic Trends poll of 12 European countries.
 
47% believe an Obama victory would strengthen relations between Europe and the USA. The number goes down to 11% if McCain wins.
 
75 percent of British respondents said they had a favorable or very favorable opinion of Obama.
 
 
This next quote hints at the impression Americans and Europeans have about America's leadership (hence, militaristic) role.
 
While 80 percent of Americans call it very or somewhat desirable for the United States to “exert strong leadership in world affairs,” just 33 percent of Europeans say the same. A quarter of European respondents called an assertive United States “very undesirable.
 
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