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Topic ClosedThe Slavic element in Homer's epics

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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Slavic element in Homer's epics
    Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:48
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Flipper

My point was alternative theories and i thought you would have something to add there. Nothing more.


Isn't this thread on the Slavic character of Homer's language an alternative theory as well?


And that was his point.


That is really an interesting point! Orthodoxy vs. Alternatives! How cute! I always thought that the Alternatives lead evolution forward!




Not those which have a hidden agenda...so you and Cyrus will just confuse everyone if anything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:49
Originally posted by Petro Invictus


WOW! How excellent! Οδεύω indeed meant to march! Οδός indeed meant a road! Odyssey then means a JOURNEY! What was that French explanation, by the way!

However in modern Greek the word for road is:δρόμος (dromos), and the word for marching is: περπατώ (perpato), πορεία (poreia), εμβατήριο (embatirio)...

In modern day Macedonian it is ODI SI, to GO AWAY (on a journey), in Russian it is: идти, in Serbian it is HODITI! While in modern Greek it is πηγαίνω (pigaino)...

Can you explain this to me!



Bre Petro, bre Petro...I give you words in Greek not latinized so that you can check out things...This is a waste of time otherwise.

This tool will help you out in 95% of the cases...

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt

Dromos and Odos are synonyms...

Περπατώ means "I walk".

Πορεία is course.

Οδεύω is exactly what I said...Again, Odyssey derives from Odysseus and his story but the name Odysseus is from Odyssomai which means "to be annoyed, to be irritated against, to hate (directional hate)".

As for the rest Petro, we'll take it tomorow. I have to go now. But remember... Check out what you write before, especially when you deal with matters you're getting a third person view. You don't know Greek and you know i'm a native speaker.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:51
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Alah means a temple in Old Saxon - so all Muslims are Saxon...pleaseLOL


Macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect that was standardised in 20th century - there was no Macedonian (slavic) 3000 years ago - cut out this nonsense. please.

You can get your nationalist pride out of your system elsewhere.


IT might be to YOU! And you only! To me it is the root Slavic language that the ancient Macedonians used that has survived in modern day Macedonian! It was merely accepted by the Bulgarian Khaanate in the 9th century to avoid Byzantine influence! The story is much broader and it requires another thread!

Slavic Bulgarian derives from Macedonian! Old Bulgarian was a Tatar language!

There are indications both in Homer and Rosetta stone, as well as Canopus stone that the ancient Macedonians used a form of proto-Slavic language that has survived in modern day Macedonian! Surely, you do not suggest that language was Bulgarian as well!

I am sorry if it hurts your nationalist feelings!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:57
I can't hurt my feelings - firstly, I don't feel any nationalist pride, secondly I'm SLOVAK - I don't care.

What about the syntax, phonology, grammar and morphology??? Is it Slavic too??
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:58
Originally posted by Flipper

Bre Petro, bre Petro...I give you words in Greek not latinized so that you can check out things...This is a waste of time otherwise.

This tool will help you out in 95% of the cases...

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt

Dromos and Odos are synonyms...

Περπατώ means "I walk".

Πορεία is course.

Οδεύω is exactly what I said...Again, Odyssey derives from Odysseus and his story but the name Odysseus is from Odyssomai which means "to be annoyed, to be irritated against, to hate (directional hate)".

As for the rest Petro, we'll take it tomorow. I have to go now. But remember... Check out what you write before, especially when you deal with matters you're getting a third person view. You don't know Greek and you know i'm a native speaker.


Synonyms with rather different etymologies I agree! However, the one in use in Greek is Dromos! Thanks for the tool it just confirmed what I said!

In Macedonian ODI means to GO! ODI SI means to GO AWAY! ODYSSEY means a journey! And it is not only since 200 years ago it seems! There is lots of politics in between so alternative approaches bring new light to the issue!

 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:02
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

I can't hurt my feelings - firstly, I don't feel any nationalist pride, secondly I'm SLOVAK - I don't care.

What about the syntax, phonology, grammar and morphology??? Is it Slavic too??


It could be if we analyze it together! Aren't you excited as a Slovak to check it out!

By the way this is what a compatriot of yours would say on the issue:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/spevak/trojan_era.htm

"It is my belief that the Achaeans did not speak a proto-Slavic language. If their vocabulary contained proto-Slavic words it is most likely they were borrowed from the Pelasgi or other Slavic-speaking tribes. I believe the Achaeans spoke a language that was more closely related to the language family of the later City States, but surely it wasn’t the same as that which was brought from Thessaly by the Dorians."

This being his personal opinion of course! I disagree with some of it, however, it is an alternative point of view!

I agree that the Pelasgi were Slav speaking tribe, and there we go the Macedonians are not that far, are they?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:03
The syntax, morphology, grammar and even phonetics has changed a lot since Homer's time!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:04
How about these:

Homer: prosphêmi,prosephê; English: to speak to, address; Macedonian: PROZVE, PROZIVA; Greek: μιλώ (milo), μιλήστε

Homer: eimi,eseai, estai; English: to be, to exist; Macedonian: (JE)SUM, (JE)SI, (JE)STE ; Greek: be=είμαι, βρίσκομαι (eimai, briskomai),exist=υπάρχω, υφίσταμαι (yparcho, yfistamai)

Homer: emos,emôi; English: mine; Macedonian: MOJ, MOJA, MOI, MOE; Greek: δικός μου (dikos mou)

Homer: houtos, touto; English: that; Macedonian: TOA(TE); Greek:εκείνος, ότι, ώστε (ekeinos, oti, oste)

I particularly like the first entry:prosephê! In modern day Macedonian it is PROZVE! What is it in Slovakian?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:07
Here's one from me Flipper!



Cheers


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:18
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The syntax, morphology, grammar and even phonetics has changed a lot since Homer's time!


Sure, the same can be said of English, Norwegian or Swedish - however, those three are still clearly Germanic, as the 'basis' of language usually doesn't change much.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:19
The fact you found a few words that are (maybe) used in Macedonian Slavic can mean that you have got it from Hellenic languages.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:28
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

The fact you found a few words that are (maybe) used in Macedonian Slavic can mean that you have got it from Hellenic languages.


That is not an exception! However, how do you suggest we should explain the use of those FEW WORDS in other Slavic languages. Compare:

TO SEE:

Russian - видеть (VIDET)

Polish - WIDZIEĆ (VIDIETS)

Ukrainian - vyhliadaty (VIHLIADATI)

Croatian - VIDI

Macedonian - VIDE, VIDEN

Homeric - IDEON

Greek - VLEPO ?!?!

Sure you do not imply that Homer was traveling across Russia, selling wine to the Polish and singing his epics to the Ukrainian? LOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 18:32
You did not tell me what is TO ADDRESS or to SPEAK TO in Slovak? What does "nazvať" mean?

PROZVE,PROZVATI, NAZVATI - to name, to address, to speak to, in Homer:prosephê!

Doesn't it ring a bell in YOUR Slavic ear?




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:05
'nazvať' means 'to give a name to'/'to call' (perfective) only, nothing more. 'prezvať' (which would be an equivalent to prozvati) doesn't exist.

to name - menovať, vymenovať....
to adress to - osloviť, oslovovať....
to speak to - hovoriť (s)...



Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jun-2008 at 19:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:08
Is prosephe also composed of a verb sephe with a preffix pro??


Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jun-2008 at 19:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:15
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Is prosephe also composed of a verb sephe with a preffix pro??


INDEED: PROSEPHE (προσέφη) προς(=to, towards)+έφη(=he said), from verb φημί(phimi=Ι say), past: έφην.

HOWEVER:

PRO is a suffix in Macedonian used to create phrasal verb patterns!

ZOVE, ZVE means TO CALL, TO NAME, TO ADDRESS!!! Similar to the root of the Slovak NA-ZVE!!! NA being a suffix, mind you, suffixes have different application in different languages even of similar origin!

PROZOVE means to ADDRESS someone! TO CALL UPON!!! We use this for example in school when the teacher calls the students by name.

Exactly the same as in Homer's text! Zeus was calling "her" (Just like an authority would do): "Strange one,1 you are always suspecting, and I do not escape you; yet you shall be able to accomplish nothing, but shall be even further from my heart."

In modern Greek the term has lost its root form in its modern use! "λέγω", "γνώμη" has a different root form than what was used in Homer's epics!

While: "φημί" (fimi) means to say YES! To confirm!

So if we analyze your etymology of the ancient Greek, which mind you has been irreversibly imposed into modern Greek via the Katharevousa, it turns out that Homer said something like:

INSTEAD: "Then in answer to her spoke Zeus" it would be: "Then towards her he said YES!" Or what do you suggest?

Again I am not suggesting that the modern Greek is deprived of Homer's words! However, it might be the legacy of the political intrusion of another artificial language such as the Katharevousa that at the time has created such a diglossic confusion in Greece, that still has consequences even on you!!!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:17
I just want to say to you: you needn't do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....this is enough: .Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:19
Otherwise, as I said, I'm Slovak and I don't really care, so the discussion is up to you and Flipper. But really, a full stop looks better than an exclamation pointSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:19
Moreover Slayer! There are other indications that Homer's original language was of proto-Slavic origin! The style of its narration has been preserved in South Slavic languages in a form known as "guslanje" today!

Take a look:

http://www.didaskalia.net/issues/vol3no3/foley.html

South Slavic epic offers classicists an opportunity to do what we cannot do with archaic Greek epic: attend an actual performance by an oral epic singer.

As a proem to their performances, however, let me sketch in some background for the often cited but still poorly understood comparison between Homeric and South Slavic epic, first offering some observations on the guslar's actual performance style and then considering the manifold implications of that style for Ugljanin's, Medjedovic's, and (I would argue) Homer's art. For as interesting as the reality of oral traditional epic is from an ethnographic point of view, and as important as it is to meet the complex event of oral performance on its own terms, the telos of such investigations must eventually be the poems themselves. Performance is finally most significant in its impact on poiesis.








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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 19:20
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

I just want to say to you: you needn't do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....this is enough: .Smile


I like it! It is scientifically challenging to me! Cheers




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