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Jesus was Caesar ?

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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jesus was Caesar ?
    Posted: 15-May-2008 at 16:25
''Jesus was Caesar / On the Julian Origin of Christianity'' By Francesco Carotta. http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html

''  Julius Caesar, son of Venus and founder of the Roman Empire, was elevated to the status of Imperial God, Divus Julius, after his violent death. The cult that surrounded him dissolved as Christianity surfaced.
A cult surrounding Jesus Christ, son of God and originator of Christianity, appeared during the second century. Early historians, however, never mentioned Jesus and even now there is no actual proof of his existence.  ''
 
My question is: Is there really no proof of Jesus Christ's existance ? Confused


Edited by erkut - 15-May-2008 at 16:29
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2008 at 17:32
Aren't the gospels historic proof of the historic existence of Jesus?
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2008 at 18:18

We can, by taking all of the historical data from the beginning of the Christian era, state that it is almost certain that Jesus did exist. There is evidence going back to the middle of the first century, not the second. Both the Scriptures and the external testimony to the movement which He founded argue for his existence. While it cannot be decided with historical certainty, I think that the historical record alone argues for the extreme probability of his existence, and have yet to see an argument which throws this probability into sufficient doubt. If you are asking for a body, that is ruled out by the Christian narrative. Wink

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2008 at 19:31

Doubt it. Both Christian and non-Christian offer good records and evidence of how Jesus did exist. Whether he was divine or not... well, we are still debating on that one.

But the connection is quite interesting. I remember a story about how he was tested into a question where people asked if tax should be paid to Caesar or God.


Edited by pekau - 15-May-2008 at 19:34
     
   
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2008 at 11:22
Well i didnt belive this at first, but than it makes me doubt...
What is the oldest record about Jesus?
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2008 at 11:42
Originally posted by erkut

Well i didnt belive this at first, but than it makes me doubt...
What is the oldest record about Jesus?


Christian or non-Christian?
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2008 at 13:44
Consider that if thousands of people have had some kind of influence from this man, and hundreds of commentators (admittedly non-historical) from the gospels and other sources have said something about him, then it's pretty good evidence that he probably did exist. Moreover, regard that in the early Christian Byzantine councils and the earlier Constantines' council of Nicaea, that many had reports from people about this man. That's evidence enough for me
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2008 at 14:52
Look, the argument that there are a lot of similarities between Christianity and Emperor worship is a good one. There are. But my hunch is that the similarities stem from both Christianity and the Caesar cult drawing their inspiration from the mystery cults that were popular at the time in the pagan world.

And the insight on how the gospels can be interpreted as an allegory for the Roman civil war seems interesting. It would explain why some people could identify with the story (although it does beg the question on why were the gospels written in Greek, rather than Latin, if the main audience were the Romans.)

The conclusion that the Caesar cult and Christianity is the same is ludicrous.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2008 at 16:24
Originally posted by hugoestr

Look, the argument that there are a lot of similarities between Christianity and Emperor worship is a good one. There are. But my hunch is that the similarities stem from both Christianity and the Caesar cult drawing their inspiration from the mystery cults that were popular at the time in the pagan world.

And the insight on how the gospels can be interpreted as an allegory for the Roman civil war seems interesting. It would explain why some people could identify with the story (although it does beg the question on why were the gospels written in Greek, rather than Latin, if the main audience were the Romans.)

The conclusion that the Caesar cult and Christianity is the same is ludicrous.
 
It has the makings of one of those Holy Grail best sellers though.
 
Somebody call Dan Brown.   LOL
 
 
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2008 at 19:50
Ok i made a research one of my friend told me Cornelius Tacticus(AD.55-120), Flavius Josephus(AD.38-100) was mentioned about Jesus.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2008 at 19:55
In addition, I don't think Caesar would, in any way, want to be associated with the unimportant and troublesome province of Judea.
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  Quote flaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 03:55
Originally posted by hugoestr

Look, the argument that there are a lot of similarities between Christianity and Emperor worship is a good one. There are. But my hunch is that the similarities stem from both Christianity and the Caesar cult drawing their inspiration from the mystery cults that were popular at the time in the pagan world.

And the insight on how the gospels can be interpreted as an allegory for the Roman civil war seems interesting. It would explain why some people could identify with the story (although it does beg the question on why were the gospels written in Greek, rather than Latin, if the main audience were the Romans.)

The conclusion that the Caesar cult and Christianity is the same is ludicrous.
 

The last thing that any Jew would do is deify a human being.  Because Judaism was older than Rome was, the Romans exempted the Jews from emperor worship as a show of respect.

 

If Christianity originated among the Jews, then the first Christians had to have had some legitimate reason to believe that Jesus Christ was God.

 

BTW: Didn’t the 1st century AD Jewish historian Josephus mention Jesus? And should proof that Jesus Christ existed be limited to proof that the person Jesus Christ existed? If Jesus Christ never existed, how can you explain documentary evidence for the existence of Christians?

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 04:07
Originally posted by Constantine


Christian or non-Christian?

Bear in mind that any detailed records became Christian records. Early christians (1st & 2nd century) were hungry for information about Jesus and weren't about to throw away a source. Any suffiencently detailed record would have become a part of someones* Christianity.

The last thing that any Jew would do is deify a human being.  Because Judaism was older than Rome was, the Romans exempted the Jews from emperor worship as a show of respect.

 

If Christianity originated among the Jews, then the first Christians had to have had some legitimate reason to believe that Jesus Christ was God.


No doubt why Antoich and not Jerusalam was the place trinitarianism first took hold.

*As in, it may not have been sanctioned by the Church but it would have been christian.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 08:10
Originally posted by Omar

Originally posted by Constantine


Christian or non-Christian?
Bear in mind that any detailed records became Christian records. Early christians (1st & 2nd century) were hungry for information about Jesus and weren't about to throw away a source. Any suffiencently detailed record would have become a part of someones* Christianity.


Well I am not too certain that every early Roman record of Jesus was taken on board verbatim by the Christians.

The author I have in mind at the moment is Tacitus, as I read his Annals and in it he specifically mentions Christ. His reference is a short one, simply naming him as a criminal who was crucified from Judaea under whose leadership the cult whose members call themselves "Christians" sprung up.

Tacitus has a take on Jesus and the Christians which is far from flattering. So far he is the earliest non-Christian source I have found which speaks about Jesus, and he was writing 80 years after the Crucifixion. Some have concluded the opposite to what you are suggesting - that Tacitus got his information source from the Christians themselves or their affiliates rather than from earlier Roman sources and archives
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 16:48
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

No doubt why Antoich and not Jerusalam was the place trinitarianism first took hold.
 
Could you elaborate a bit on that? I'm not exactly sure what is being referred to. As far as I know, the Antiochene "school" was generally home to many literalist exegetes, who tended to adopt *ahem* an Adoptionist Christological perspective. These men, such as Paul of Samosata, often had problems with orthodox trinitarianism.
 
-Akolouthos
 
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  Quote flaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 17:53
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by Constantine


Christian or non-Christian?

Bear in mind that any detailed records became Christian records. Early christians (1st & 2nd century) were hungry for information about Jesus and weren't about to throw away a source. Any suffiencently detailed record would have become a part of someones* Christianity.

The last thing that any Jew would do is deify a human being.  Because Judaism was older than Rome was, the Romans exempted the Jews from emperor worship as a show of respect.

 

If Christianity originated among the Jews, then the first Christians had to have had some legitimate reason to believe that Jesus Christ was God.


No doubt why Antoich and not Jerusalam was the place trinitarianism first took hold.

*As in, it may not have been sanctioned by the Church but it would have been christian.
 

What church?

 

During the 1st century individual Christian congregations submitted to the authority of Paul and the original Apostles.  Tradition holds that as the Apostles died off they appointed successors which had authority over local congregations.  But by the mid-2nd century there were too many congregations to be administered by just a few apostolic successors.  And in the meantime heresies were already in the works long before the Apostles were all dead. The Apostles and their immediate successors never had any earthly authority to do anything about heresies other than warn people about them.  The power to excommunicate heretics and legally define what Christianity is did not rest in a single entity until the earthly leaders of the church had the backing of law that came with Constantine in the 4th century.

 

The Apostles had the ability to tell us what Christian doctrine is, but they had no earthly power to enforce it.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 17:55
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Omar

Originally posted by Constantine


Christian or non-Christian?
Bear in mind that any detailed records became Christian records. Early christians (1st & 2nd century) were hungry for information about Jesus and weren't about to throw away a source. Any suffiencently detailed record would have become a part of someones* Christianity.


Well I am not too certain that every early Roman record of Jesus was taken on board verbatim by the Christians.

The author I have in mind at the moment is Tacitus, as I read his Annals and in it he specifically mentions Christ. His reference is a short one, simply naming him as a criminal who was crucified from Judaea under whose leadership the cult whose members call themselves "Christians" sprung up.

Tacitus has a take on Jesus and the Christians which is far from flattering. So far he is the earliest non-Christian source I have found which speaks about Jesus, and he was writing 80 years after the Crucifixion. Some have concluded the opposite to what you are suggesting - that Tacitus got his information source from the Christians themselves or their affiliates rather than from earlier Roman sources and archives
 
Ah these ancient historians. I mean, its so unreasonable to cite sources!
 
The thing is, reading Tacitus's work, one gets the feeling from the context the he is simply repeating what he was told by Christians or at least those who were familiar with their ideology.
 
That said, I do believe that there was a historical Jesus. Even if the records are sparse, we need to remember that many things which are later recognized as supremely important, were not recognized as being that big a deal at the time.
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  Quote flaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 18:09
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Omar

Originally posted by Constantine


Christian or non-Christian?
Bear in mind that any detailed records became Christian records. Early christians (1st & 2nd century) were hungry for information about Jesus and weren't about to throw away a source. Any suffiencently detailed record would have become a part of someones* Christianity.


Well I am not too certain that every early Roman record of Jesus was taken on board verbatim by the Christians.

The author I have in mind at the moment is Tacitus, as I read his Annals and in it he specifically mentions Christ. His reference is a short one, simply naming him as a criminal who was crucified from Judaea under whose leadership the cult whose members call themselves "Christians" sprung up.

Tacitus has a take on Jesus and the Christians which is far from flattering. So far he is the earliest non-Christian source I have found which speaks about Jesus, and he was writing 80 years after the Crucifixion. Some have concluded the opposite to what you are suggesting - that Tacitus got his information source from the Christians themselves or their affiliates rather than from earlier Roman sources and archives
 

Have you given any consideration to the historical details presented in the New Testament that don’t pertain specifically to Jesus?

 

If Jesus Christ never existed, then the entire NT is something of a fraud.  If the NT was written close to the time period during which Christ supposedly lived, then it would be natural for it to include historical details in an effort to give the fiction some validity.

 

But if the NT was written long after the period during which Christ was supposedly living on earth, then would the writers have bothered to include historical details?  Would the writers have known about the details themselves?  Would the NT’s target audience have known enough about the historical details for the details to have any impact?  Or were the historical details themselves made up as a ruse for people who likely wouldn’t know or couldn’t verify history from decades earlier?

 

I think most historians and Bible scholars say that the earliest any of the NT was written was in the 2nd half of the 1st century.  The earliest (as far as I know) that anyone has dated a NT document is Thiede’s dating of the Gospel of John to around 46 AD.  But if the historical details in the Gospels are accurate, would we have reason to give the Gospels an earlier date, i.e., they were written closer to the time of Christ and may have been eyewitness accounts as Christian tradition maintains they are?  Would an earlier date give the Gospels validity as historical documents and not just religious polemics?

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  Quote flaja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 18:13
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

No doubt why Antoich and not Jerusalam was the place trinitarianism first took hold.
 
Could you elaborate a bit on that? I'm not exactly sure what is being referred to. As far as I know, the Antiochene "school" was generally home to many literalist exegetes, who tended to adopt *ahem* an Adoptionist Christological perspective. These men, such as Paul of Samosata, often had problems with orthodox trinitarianism.
 
-Akolouthos
 
 

Trinitarianism is found in the NT.  So whether or not the first Christians were Trinitarian depends on whether or not you accept the NT as history. If you reject Trinitarianism, then you will find some way to discount the NT.

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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 19:09
Originally posted by flaja

During the 1st century individual Christian congregations submitted to the authority of Paul and the original Apostles.  Tradition holds that as the Apostles died off they appointed successors which had authority over local congregations.  But by the mid-2nd century there were too many congregations to be administered by just a few apostolic successors.  And in the meantime heresies were already in the works long before the Apostles were all dead. The Apostles and their immediate successors never had any earthly authority to do anything about heresies other than warn people about them.  The power to excommunicate heretics and legally define what Christianity is did not rest in a single entity until the earthly leaders of the church had the backing of law that came with Constantine in the 4th century.

 

The Apostles had the ability to tell us what Christian doctrine is, but they had no earthly power to enforce it.

 
Well, there were more than a few Apostolic successors. Indeed, everywhere they went the Apostles set up local Church organizations, to be administered by local presbyters and bishops who corresponded with the Apostles themselves. Furthermore, the Apostles certainly had the right to enforce decrees against heresy, as Scripture testifies. The process was redefined a bit after the death of the Apostles and the destruction of Jerusalem, but it has always been a part of Christian history. Although excommunication did not gain a legal dimension in a civil sense until after the Church was reconciled with the state during the Constantinian era, it was certainly practiced long before that.
 
Trinitarianism is found in the NT.  So whether or not the first Christians were Trinitarian depends on whether or not you accept the NT as history. If you reject Trinitarianism, then you will find some way to discount the NT.
 
I agree, but there were those who did not. You see, though the proper interpretation of Scripture takes account of the references to the co-eternality of the Son with the Father, and the divinity of the Spirit, there were many who, claiming to interpret Scripture, came to different, erroneous conclusions. All of them held to the same basic corpus of Scripture -- we're not talking about a canon here, at least not in a modern sense; what differed were their interpretations. The conflict between the Antiochene and Alexandrian schools was of major import in the Trinitarian and Christological debates of the fourth and fifth centuries, which is why I was wondering about -- and not disputing -- Omar's reference.
 
-Akolouthos
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