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What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?

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Poll Question: Where to etsablish it?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
7 [63.64%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [9.09%]
1 [9.09%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [18.18%]
0 [0.00%]
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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?
    Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:56
Originally posted by Menumorut

I'm spending much time on streets and observed not only at pedestrians but at the cars passangers what I sayed.
I doubt the accuracy of your observations. Since you persist, let me draw a card: on a different forum one of your nicknames (you had few accounts there) could be translated roughly in English as "Anti-Gypsianization". Do you want me to continue (I can even translate some of your messages to illustrate why I don't trust your personal testimony on Roma)?
 
That was not about their number but about their opinion on the matter of this topic.
If you trace back this chain of quotes you'll see it was about their number. Anyway, I told you earlier I have multiple reasons to distrust your personal experience, so bring a better evidence if you do have a claim about the "Gypsianization" of Romania or their wish to create and move in a state of their own.
 
It's surviving due to the existence of Hungary.
Prove it.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 12-May-2008 at 01:59
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:57
Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hmm why would Romania be weakened by an influx of millions of consumer/producers???

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away. I don't see why Southern Transylvania wouldn't be good, the fact that it is in the middle of Romania is more a problem for Gypsieland than foe Romania itself.

Besides, what region would Russia give to the Roma? They'll certainly not give them a highly producing area, so the Roma are likely to find themselves somewhere in the middle of central Asia or Siberia, it is likely that no Roma will ever go there, so may as well not do it.

If it is getting rid of the Roma that you want, just open camps for them.
 
Why to create it in Russia in the first place?
 
The number of Russian Roma is much smaller than the number of Roma in Romania, Hungary, Spain or Turkey. Besides there are no territories with dense Roma population in Russia anyway.
 
Also IMHO Roma identity is more connected to Balkan cultural region than to Russia.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:17
Originally posted by Chilbudios

let me draw a card: on a different forum one of your nicknames (you had few accounts there) could be translated roughly in English as "Anti-Gypsianization". Do you want me to continue (I can even translate some of your messages to illustrate why I don't trust your personal testimony on Roma)?


As I sayed, I changed (I may say deeply) since then. Anyway, I found bad your way of denouncing me.

I don't answer more at the other two paragraphs since you started again to dissect my messages in an inutile way.

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12


Why to create it in Russia in the first place?


The number of Russian Roma is much smaller than the number of Roma in Romania, Hungary, Spain or Turkey. Besides there are no territories with dense Roma population in Russia anyway.


Also IMHO Roma identity is more connected to Balkan cultural region than to Russia.


Russia has large territories due to imperialist expansion, in Balkans is too narrow, this was the idea. But I didn't think this without the wish of the Russian people. If they don't want this, should not happen.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:56
Originally posted by Menumorut

As I sayed, I changed (I may say deeply) since then. Anyway, I found bad your way of denouncing me.

I don't answer more at the other two paragraphs since you started again to dissect my messages in an inutile way.
The things you have said on this thread are essentially those you said last year on that forum. Whatever has changed in you, it is not about the seeing Gypsies everywhere and looking for solutions to send them away from the society you live in. And since you insisted to provide your personal experience as evidence, I think is fair both for me and for other readers to know your agenda.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:15
OK, you have a perfect agenda and a rich social life, now are the guard keeping the forum clean of me?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:30

Whatever agenda and social life I have I said I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma people (and many other things, actually) based only on that.

 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:36
Originally posted by Menumorut


Russia has large territories due to imperialist expansion, in Balkans is too narrow, this was the idea. But I didn't think this without the wish of the Russian people. If they don't want this, should not happen.
 
Then, please also add USA, Canada and Brazil to the list of "the large territories due to imperialist expansion."
 
I wonder if there are any actual Roma among the participants of these thread. It's funny how non-Roma are trying to make Roma happy, by offering them an independent state, without knowing the opinion of actual Roma. LOL
 
Interesting observation is that they never had a state, yet their culture and identiy is intact. "Permanent state" is not really what "Gypsy soul" is about. Are there any international Roma group which advocate for the creation of a separate state at all?
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:38
Whatever agenda and social life I have I said I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma people (and many other things, actually) based only on that.


I'm tired of your atitude of 'moderating' me, you make me feel I'm not wanted on this forum, this may be true so I'll take a break.

Edited by Menumorut - 12-May-2008 at 03:39

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 09:42
Can you guys speak with evidence? Chilbudios, if you have any problem with this man, bring proofs , links etc. The same for Menumorut. If we discussed this way in all topics, as you do, then the forum would have collapsed in one day. Stop referring to personalities and agendas, and , finally, bring material to discuss.

Concerning the subject of the topic. There is no way to create a gypsy State in the Balkans,because none of the Balkan States is willing to allow such a thing.


Edited by Spartakus - 12-May-2008 at 09:42
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 21:50
Never heard about Roma want a separate state for themselves. I rather see nationalistic ideas very far away from Roma's culture and customs. Creating such state in Scandinavia or Russia would be crazy. Roma are not Eskimos, they won't live igloos. Second thing Russia and any other European country will not agree for something like that.
All reasons You mentioned why Romania will not agree for Roma state, perfectly fit any other Balkan country.
Anyway what European Roma need is not a separate country but help from the states where they live and as well from the whole EU to increase their level of education and standard of living.
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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 11:31
They slowly move in Italy. 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 12:11
Originally posted by Chilbudios

More importantly, I don't see the State as a solution for the Roma. I mean, now more than ever the technological possibilities exist for a nomadic life (wireless communication). The Roma should be able to develop a on-the-move-cottage-industry (if need be with a bit of state support) rather than given the opportunity to have a state.
Most Roma people I know are not nomadic. Actually I'm certain that most Roma people in Romania live in villages and cities, not in tents.


Indeed, that is a bias most people have. The largest percentage of Roma live like everyone else. However, people tend to identify as Roma only those living in tents.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 16:59
I believe that the creation of a Roma state is wrong. It's creation could be an oppresive act to the inhabitants of the area appointed, unless it was a wasteland which would also be discriminating for the Romas. Roma people should feel that the country they live in is their home. A creation of a Roma state would proove, that the home feeling has failed and that we treat them as second category citizens. 


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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 04:25
They have it here:(with intentions to cover all theritory of state)Smile
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 14:17
The country should be in Romania or Bulgaria but there is huge different between Jews and Gypsy

There is no common religion, neighter common language/languages such as Yiddish and Ladino  for Jews. However language division is more powerful in gypsy.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 21:22
The Gypsy population in Bulgaria is largely antisocial, and from what I have read similar populations in other countries are asocial, if not downright antisocial. There are few Gypsy intellectuals in Bulgaria, but ironically they are not accepted by the mainstream Gypsy population and considered outcasts by the mainstream Bulgarian one; so their situation is one of isolation and loneliness. I cannot imagine a Roma state organized along social lines to start with.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 04:07
The question is why?

Historically, they disassociate themselves with any sovereign homeland identification in general. Why now a need to dictate to them a 'state'... if their traditional love of independence and freedom doesn't require it or a majority voice amongst them has yet to demand it.

Would the world enslave them to a status they don't seek?

Sounds if not patronizing then dictatorial to me.


Iow. when has anyone, other than the Roma, been determined to be the spokesman for or representative of the Roma.

By what authority is it... that they should be subject to the whims of the non Roma; who would then dictate their future. There lies the conditions and factors that once had the Roma as second class citizens and slaves.


"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 14:07
If you are without a country, you are without a voice in modern affairs.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 15:33
Three ideas are acceptable for me
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