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What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?

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Poll Question: Where to etsablish it?
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Menumorut View Drop Down
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?
    Posted: 11-May-2008 at 19:49


I think Roma people should have a territory of their own on this planet, somewhere in Europe. This would help them as the creation of Israel helped the Jewish people, not for that most of them would migrate to that territory but because they would get another self-conscience when having a land of their own.

The problem is: where to establish that territory? Romania is by far the country with the largest Roma community, some millions, inlcuding he mixed Romanian-Roma but establishing a Roma state on the territory of Romania I see unacceptable due to the bad behaviour they (Roma) have had and having toward Romanians and also Romania would start to look as a multinational state while the Roma community numbered only few hundred thousands some decades ago.

Other countries with the same high percent of Roma population (10-15% but rapidly increasingly) are Bulgaria and Hungary.

What you think, shoud be established such state and where?

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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:24
Roma have been nomads since...forever and they don't even want a state for themselves.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:54
Hmm, you  forgot that, with the creation of Israel, we had approximately 6 wars and 2 Indifandas?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:08
Roma people want to be free of the control of states.
In the case of Spain, Roma are so integrated to Spanish history and arts, that are considered central to the identity of that country.
In the case of my own country, they are starting to be assimilated to the mainstream. No matter that, they still preserve theirs traditions.
Finally, there isn't a single Roma people. The gypsies have a lot variety of culture and lifestyles depending on the countries they live. A Romanian gypsie has not much to do with a Spaniard Gypsy or an Arab or Latin American gypsie.


Edited by pinguin - 11-May-2008 at 21:10
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:24
All of them I spoken with sayed that they want a state, ofcourse in Romania. I think is natural to want to know that somewhere in the world there is a place of your nation. And this would help them get better organized and preserve their identity against assimilation because in the same time of they are growing raported to Romanians, Hungarians etc they are linguisticaly assimilated and that means they will vanish at a moment.

Is true there are several different tribes, ones still conservative, but they all consider and are the same people.

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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:28
The Roma themselves dont have a united identity. In Albania, most of them -- if not all -- speak Albanian as their main language and would probably consider themselves Albs were it not for the fact that Albs around them reject this and continue making their very ethnic name a derogatory term.(magjyp, cigan, jevg, zezak are all terms related to the Roma and all are commonly used as insults in Albania)

Edited by Theodore Felix - 11-May-2008 at 21:29
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 22:39
@ Menu

Your argument against the creation of a Roma state in Romania is pretty weak. The bad behaviour one is hardly comprehensible and is actually an argument for the creation of a Roma independent state on the current territory of Romania (a Roma state in Russia would not be as appealing for the Romanian gypsies, so you would not get rid of them). And saying that Romania would become a multi-national country is not a problem either since Gypsieland would not be Romania.

That being said, even if the Roma want that independent state, I don't see how it could ever work. 1. There is not a ideology as strong, widely shared and structured as the Jews had with Zionism 2. The social variety amongst the Roma is pretty inexistent, it ranges from lower middle class to miserable (I saw a family living in a horse-carriage last year in Southern Portugal), I don't see the ruling elite that de facto started Israel 3. Knowing the present issues with organized crime in Eastern Europe and the crime issues the Roma population are often mixed with, one could wonder if the Roma state wouldn't turn into a crime heaven in Europe.

More importantly, I don't see the State as a solution for the Roma. I mean, now more than ever the technological possibilities exist for a nomadic life (wireless communication). The Roma should be able to develop a on-the-move-cottage-industry (if need be with a bit of state support) rather than given the opportunity to have a state.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 22:54
More importantly, I don't see the State as a solution for the Roma. I mean, now more than ever the technological possibilities exist for a nomadic life (wireless communication). The Roma should be able to develop a on-the-move-cottage-industry (if need be with a bit of state support) rather than given the opportunity to have a state.
Most Roma people I know are not nomadic. Actually I'm certain that most Roma people in Romania live in villages and cities, not in tents.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 23:06
Its true, Roma's have long since been settled; and hover mainly in the urban sphere.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2008 at 23:25
Originally posted by Maharbbal

The bad behaviour one is hardly comprehensible and is actually an argument for the creation of a Roma independent state on the current territory of Romania (a Roma state in Russia would not be as appealing for the Romanian gypsies, so you would not get rid of them). And saying that Romania would become a multi-national country is not a problem either since Gypsieland would not be Romania.


The situation is that the Roma are spreaded all over Romania (each locality has a Roma district with the exception of small vilages but also there are tens of majoritary Roma villages and even a town or some) and there are two more densely Roma-inhabited areas, one arround and in Bucharest (I think one of three Bucharestians has Roma blood, at least as a result of mixage) and one in the former Saxon area in Southern Transylvania. So, the creation of a Roma state would lead to the weakening of the Romanian state.

If would be created a Roma autonomous region, would be either in Bucharest region, so the capital of the country would become the capital of another people, either in the former Saxon area which* is right in the center of the country.

The creation of a Roma state in Russia would attract some millions Roma there, as Israel attracted Jews from allround the world. Not all of them, most will remain in their country but shall exist a Roma country and their identity would be saved.

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*As the pretended Hungarian-Szekler region too.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:00
Originally posted by Menumorut

The situation is that the Roma are spreaded all over Romania (each locality has a Roma district with the exception of small vilages but also there are tens of majoritary Roma villages and even a town or some) and there are two more densely Roma-inhabited areas, one arround and in Bucharest (I think one of three Bucharestians has Roma blood, at least as a result of mixage) and one in the former Saxon area in Southern Transylvania. So, the creation of a Roma state would lead to the weakening of the Romanian state.

If would be created a Roma autonomous region, would be either in Bucharest region, so the capital of the country would become the capital of another people, either in the former Saxon area which* is right in the center of the country.
AFAIK the mixture between Roma and other ethnicities is relatively reduced (though not inexistent). On the official census from 2002, I know that ~20-30000 persons in Bucharest declared themselves as Roma (from some over 500,000 country wide). The real numbers are of course, larger, as mixed bloods and also Roma people who do not speak the language tend sometimes not to identify themselves as Roma. However 1 in 3 (that is some 6-700,000), even counting mixed bloods, is an exaggerated figure.
 
Not all of them, most will remain in their country but shall exist a Roma country and their identity would be saved.
I don't know if you noticed, but in EU, from which many countries with Roma minorities are part of, there's such thing as minority rights. I don't think these people want a part of the steppe so they can lay their tents, they want to be part of the society there are in now. Opposing to your experience, I have never heard Roma people militating for an own state (and I had even Roma neighbours or primary school colleagues). As for criminality, there are always two sides of the coin. Many Roma are aware they are "the other" in the societies they are now part of, so crime may be sometimes their way to deal with this.


Edited by Chilbudios - 12-May-2008 at 00:08
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:31
Originally posted by Chilbudios

AFAIK the mixture between Roma and other ethnicities is relatively reduced (though not inexistent). On the official census from 2002, I know that ~20-30000 persons in Bucharest declared themselves as Roma (from some over 500,000 country wide). The real numbers are of course, larger, as mixed bloods and also Roma people who do not speak the language tend sometimes not to identify themselves as Roma. However 1 in 3 (that is some 6-700,000), even counting mixed bloods, is an exaggerated figure.


Only in Ferentari district of Bucharest there are 90000 pure Roma, in Rahova another 50-70000, actualy the 5th sector is a Roma sector, despite the Presidential Palace and the Parliament are in the same sector.

In the 2nd sector (where I live) most cildren belong to Roma. But most of them want be considered Romanians.


The 500,000 were mostly those still speaking Romani. Even the most vanitous (as individuals) of them refuse to decline their Roma identity at censuses because this makes them feel inferior.


I don't think these people want a part of the steppe so they can lay their tents, they want to be part of the society there are in now. Opposing to your experience, I have never heard Roma people militating for an own state (and I had even Roma neighbours or primary school colleagues). As for criminality, there are always two sides of the coin. Many Roma are aware they are "the other" in the societies they are now part of, so crime may be sometimes their way to deal with this.


Imagine that such a state would be created. There are enough of them wanting to begin a new life there, living from agriculture etc.

I asked some of them and they sayed would wish such a state, but they don't militate for this because they feel this not very just, which is wrong, they have the right of having a country.

The minority rights cann't save them from assimilation, just watch what is happening with the Balkans Vlachs.

I agree with what you say about criminality, the fact that is higher among them ofcourse is not a genetical characteristic.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:46
Originally posted by Menumorut

Only in Ferentari district of Bucharest there are 90000 pure Roma, in Rahova another 50-70000, actualy the 5th sector is a Roma sector, despite the Presidential Palace and the Parliament are in the same sector.

In the 2nd sector (where I live) most cildren belong to Roma. But most of them want be considered Romanians.


The 500,000 were mostly those still speaking Romani. Even the most vanitous (as individuals) of them refuse to decline their Roma identity at censuses because this makes them feel inferior.
Can you give reliable sources for your claims? I happen to live in this city for decades and I find your claims fictional and stereotypical. I lived in some of those sectors, I worked in them, I personally know people from them. And no offense, from your earlier threads you left me with the impression of a person who does not have a rich social life, so forgive me I distrust your personal experience. I also happen to know your accounts on other forums and your discourse on Gypsies, so again, another reason to distrust.
 
I asked some of them and they sayed would wish such a state, but they don't militate for this because they feel this not very just, which is wrong, they have the right of having a country.
See above.
 
The minority rights cann't save them from assimilation, just watch what is happening with the Balkans Vlachs.
Many Hungarians in Romania seem to preserve their identity. Why aren't you more optimistic about it?
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 12-May-2008 at 00:47
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:48
I think it has to be in Romania.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:53
Hmm why would Romania be weakened by an influx of millions of consumer/producers???

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away. I don't see why Southern Transylvania wouldn't be good, the fact that it is in the middle of Romania is more a problem for Gypsieland than foe Romania itself.

Besides, what region would Russia give to the Roma? They'll certainly not give them a highly producing area, so the Roma are likely to find themselves somewhere in the middle of central Asia or Siberia, it is likely that no Roma will ever go there, so may as well not do it.

If it is getting rid of the Roma that you want, just open camps for them.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:07
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Can you give reliable sources for your claims? I happen to live in this city for decades and I find your claims fictional and stereotypical. I lived in some of those sectors, I worked in them, I personally know people from them.


You cand find data on Internet saying that out of the 120,000 Ferentari inhabitants 80% are Roma (open Google and type Ferentari or better jump directly to this link, look for the red text paragraph).



And no offense, from your earlier threads you left me with the impression of a person who does not have a rich social life, so forgive me I distrust your personal experience. I also happen to know your accounts on other forums and your discourse on Gypsies, so again, another reason to distrust.


You don't have to have a rich social life (as you maybe have, happy you ) to meet them, anyway, I'm not completely isolated from society, I live in the same city and have daily contacts whith some of my acquaintances.

In last period I have had some closer relations with some Roma people and this changed me.



Many Hungarians in Romania seem to preserve their identity. Why aren't you more optimistic about it?


There is already a Hungarian state.



Originally posted by Maharbbal

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away.


Anyway, Romania is a too small country for this.


Edited by Menumorut - 12-May-2008 at 01:19

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:12
There are much smaller countries that Romania, and more populous ones on top of that.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:19
I mean the raport between the whole territory and the gived one.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:28

Originally posted by Menumorut

You cand find data on Internet saying that out of the 120,000 Ferentari inhabitants 80% are Roma (open Google and type Ferentari or better jump directly to this link, look for the red text paragraph). I found also data (that is no more available) saying that there are 90000.
That is no reliable source. Please keep in mind that official census 5 years ago found less than 30,000 people in Bucharest declaring themselves as Roma. If it's natural to suspect a larger number due to reasons stated above, but a figure many times higher requires solid evidence. Moreover your claims were not about one neighbourhood but generally about sectors 2 and 5 and you claimed that a third of the population of Bucharest is Roma. Either support these claims, or abandon them.

You don't have to have a rich social life (as you maybe have, happy you ) to meet them, anyway, I'm not completely isolated from society, I live in the same city and have daily contacts whith some of my acquaintances.
You do need a rich social life to conclude from your own experience something about the demographics of a city of 2 million inhabitants (I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma only by my experience, though). Or sources.

There is already a Hungarian state.
Yes, but there's a large surviving Hungarian minority in Romania, so it means a minority can survive.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:38
Either support these claims, or abandon them.


I'm spending much time on streets and observed not only at pedestrians but at the cars passangers what I sayed.


You do need a rich social life to conclude from your own experience something about the demographics of a city of 2 million inhabitants (I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma only by my experience, though). Or sources.


That was not about their number but about their opinion on the matter of this topic.



Yes, but there's a large surviving Hungarian minority in Romania, so it means a minority can survive.


It's surviving due to the existence of Hungary.



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