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Oldest civilization in the world?

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  Quote varma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oldest civilization in the world?
    Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 04:21
          Your notion that middle eastern civilizations to be old, is not in tune with the latest archelogical discoversies being made in the World.....
           The ruins discovered in the GULF of Cambay are dated to be 9500 years old. It is found at the exact place of the Legendary Sri Krishna's capital city DWARAk which was recorded in the Mahabarath to have submerged in the sea..
             Moreover there is not much of time difference between Indus and Mesaptomia, both the civilization evoloved side by side and the advances made by Indus valley stand out as ahead of their times
visit the site and update some current affairs about civilization
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1



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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 04:22
Here's the problem with judging time using the "yuga cycle".  There is simply nothing to confirm it - no inscriptions, no other physical correlations, nothing.   Virtually everything written, comes from a religious source; a source from a much more recent time.  I've read, where the date of Rama was said to be as early as 7,000 BC, yet when placed in the context of the Puranas, the implication is that he reigned for hundreds of years, along with each of his successors.  This is obviously unnatural, and thus must be rejected as historical.  If varma insists on this perception of history, let it be understood by all that it is in context of his own faith and not to sober history. 
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  Quote varma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 05:04
Even if we the Indian mythology and its tmelines as as just fictio what about the archeology that suggest the existence of even more older civilisation a synopsis of Indus and much more older civilisation

Indus Valley 33001700 BC

The Indus Valley civilization first appeared around 3300 BC at Harappa, followed by Mohenjo-Daro a few centuries later. By 2600 BC, it had developed into the most advanced civilization of its time, covering almost all Pakistan and North-Western India. The earliest-known farming cultures in South Asia emerged in the hills of Balochistan, Pakistan, which included Mehrgarh in 7000 BC. These semi-nomadic peoples domesticated wheat, barley, sheep, goat and cattle. Pottery was in use by the 6th millennium BC. The oldest granary yet found in Mehrgarh in the Indus Valley dates from 6000 BC. Their settlement consisted of mud buildings that housed four internal subdivisions. Burials included elaborate goods such as baskets, stone and bone tools, beads, bangles, pendants and occasionally animal sacrifices. Figurines and ornaments of sea shell, limestone, turquoise, lapis lazuli, sandstone and polished copper have been found. By the 4th millennium BC we find much evidence of manufacturing. Technologies included stone and copper drills, updraft kilns, large pit kilns and copper melting crucibles. Button seals included geometric designs.

By 4000 BC, a pre-Harappan culture emerged, with trade networks including lapis lazuli and other raw materials. Villagers domesticated numerous other crops, including peas, sesame seed, dates, and cotton, plus a wide range of domestic animals, including the water buffalo which still remains essential to intensive agricultural production throughout Asia today. There is also evidence of sea-going craft. Archaeologists have discovered a massive, dredged canal and docking facility at the coastal city of Lothal, India, perhaps the world's oldest sea-faring harbor. Judging from the dispersal of artifacts the trade networks integrated portions of Afghanistan, the Persian coast, northern and central India, Mesopotamia (see Meluhha) and Ancient Egypt (see Silk Road).

Archaeologists studying the remains of two men from Mehrgarh, Pakistan, discovered that these peoples in the Indus Valley Civilization had knowledge of medicine and dentistry as early as circa 3300 BC. Recently there was found dentistry as early as 7000 BC ( see http://archaeology.about.com/od/inventions/qt/dentistry.htm). The Indus Valley Civilization gains credit for the earliest known use of decimal fractions in a uniform system of ancient weights and measures, as well as negative numbers (see Timeline of mathematics). Ancient Indus Valley artifacts include beautiful, glazed stone faence beads.

The Indus Valley Civilization boasts the earliest known accounts of urban planning. Major cities included Lothal (2400 BC), Harappa (3300 BC), and Mohenjo-Daro (2500 BC) As seen in Harappa, Mohenjo-daro and (recently discovered) Rakhigarhi, India, their urban planning included the world's first urban sanitation systems. Evidence suggests efficient municipal governments. Streets were laid out in perfect grid patterns comparable to modern New York City. Houses were protected from noise, odors and thieves. The sewage and drainage systems developed and used in cities throughout the Indus Valley were far more advanced than that of contemporary urban sites in Mesopotamia and Egypt and also more advanced than that of any other Bronze Age or even Iron Age civilization. For an unknown reason, the Harappan civilization came to an end at around 1700 BC.

Some historians, however, believe in an ancient civilization in present-day Gujarat known as the Sorath civilization, dating back to 3700 BC. This view is starting to gain credence among historians, but has not yet been verified. This civilization was completely different from the Harappan civilization, with 90% different pottery, different crops, and a rural rather that urban aspect.

Another earlier claim was presented by oceanographical researchers of an Indian institution called NIOT in the Gulf of Cambay which consists in possible underwater structures resembling Harappan ones but dated about 7000 BC.


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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 05:23
You can have trade, medicine, a certain level of sophisitication and so on, all without being a "civilization". You need to have cities to be a civilization. The oldest cities in the Indus are 4th millenium BC, which is very old - much older than most of the world - but not the oldest. Susa is definitively dated to 4000 BC, predating any cities in the Indus (though whether it falls in the Elamite or Mesopotamian sphere is entirely debatable).
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  Quote varma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 23:28
        Edgewater, As u said Susais much older than Indus, but what about the findings in DWARAKA(GULF of Cambay ) of the Gujarat coast.
        The findings are dated some 9500 years ago and it is just not a settlement, it is a fortefied city.....

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 20:35
Originally posted by varma

        Edgewater, As u said Susais
much older than Indus, but what about the findings in DWARAKA(GULF of
Cambay ) of the Gujarat coast.
        The findings are dated some
9500 years ago and it is just not a settlement, it is a fortefied
city.....




Dubious.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1905/19050670.htm
    
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  Quote varma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 22:51
         Dubious may be for those who are limited in theior frame of mind that civilization started 4000 Years ago
         The above given site mentions that the announcement of the finding was made hastily, but it doent change anything the findings lie there for you to see and the carbon dating of the various finds are well documneted and you know before u I dont know how can u call it dubious by just reading something and ignoring the painful research that has gone into it. For all the excavation info and the datings of the individual finds u ca have a look at it just saying dubious will place u in bankrupted intellectuals and doesnt dissaprove anything about the find..
  It is well accepted in all archeological journals and archeologists about the date of the find, it is people like you with a bigoted view of history
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1

Visit the above site and better brush up your knowledge.
      Now if u think that these findings I would questing the reasons for they being dubious You must not that the findings were dated not in India alone, the OXFORD UNiversity and Institute of Earth Sciences ,Hannover Germany. It must be that even those prestigious institutes are fooling and engaging in dubious research I guess according to u
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
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  Quote Kamran the Great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 23:18
Originally posted by Cywr

India has gone? Persia has gone? Wtf?
 
Is/was India an ancient civilization ???
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 04:57

Oh my.  Now watch these two get into it. 

Incidently, I do agree with edgewaters "DUBIOUS".  You cannot date a civilization by a piece of wood.  Far too many questions as to its context.  Questionable methodology.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 05:24
Post by GreekSoul deleted.
 
You better watch it, or your stay in the AE forum will be very brief!
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 06:13
Originally posted by Kamran the Great


Is/was India an ancient civilization ???


This site should have the answer to your question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

Also we're having a discussion on the oldest accepted roots of Indian civilisation on this thread if you want more info:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12987


Edited by Anujkhamar - 07-Jul-2006 at 06:14
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 11:55
Originally posted by varma

         Dubious may be for those who are limited in theior frame of mind that civilization started 4000 Years ago
         The above given site mentions that the announcement of the finding was made hastily, but it doent change anything the findings lie there for you to see and the carbon dating of the various finds are well documneted and you know before u I dont know how can u call it dubious by just reading something and ignoring the painful research that has gone into it. For all the excavation info and the datings of the individual finds u ca have a look at it just saying dubious will place u in bankrupted intellectuals and doesnt dissaprove anything about the find..
  It is well accepted in all archeological journals and archeologists about the date of the find, it is people like you with a bigoted view of history
http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/BadrinaryanB1.php?p=1

Visit the above site and better brush up your knowledge.
      Now if u think that these findings I would questing the reasons for they being dubious You must not that the findings were dated not in India alone, the OXFORD UNiversity and Institute of Earth Sciences ,Hannover Germany. It must be that even those prestigious institutes are fooling and engaging in dubious research I guess according to u
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwaraka.htm
 
Look, Graham Hancock has virtually no credibility among established historians, so I would be very careful in accepting anything on his site or sponsored by him as facts.
 
As for Indian history in general, there's no doubt that Indian civilization is one of the oldest in the world. Whether it is older than the civilizations in the Fertile Crescent however is very much a matter of dispute and dubious at best. I have noticed that a lot of hindus tend to adhere to the theory that India has the oldest civilization in the world and what's more, that Indian civilization can be considered a mother civilization with radiating power throughout the world. This view is supported by dubious methodology in archeology and by oral records, neither of which can easily convince professional historians.
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by Kamran the Great

Is/was India an ancient civilization ???


Yes. Civilization in the Indus Valley was one of the early ones.
    
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 12:18

The oldest civillisation was the Sumerians.

Who were the Sumeians though? who were their ancestors?
 
There are many speculations into this, the strongest connection is to todays Kuwaiti's, however, a connection is also drawn to Hungarians and Turkic peoples. The link is said to be linguistic and religious, what is amazing is that Tengrism and Sumerian religion are very similar.
 
More investigations into this will ultimately discover the explanations behind this.
 
Stonehenge is the oldest civillisation in the world Big smile
 
Hey, what about ChatalHoyuk, Jericho? they're pretty old.
 
What is the longest surviving civillisation/culture however? I'd say Chinease, you could say that the Mongol period meant it didn't remain fully Chinease surviving but then again, the people who made China where Mongoloid from Northern China, the Southern Chinease were invaded and assimilated into being Chinease.
 
Itallians also could be one of the oldest surviving civillisations, they havnt been occupied since Roman times.
 
The Japanease?
 
The Turks, the Turks of Turkey havnt been ruled over for over a thousand years if we take into account the Selcuk Turk Empire and that its how they entered today's Turkey.
 
The oldest surviving Civillisations alive today would be,
 
Itallian -
Turkish of Turkey
 
These two surviving nations civillisations have never been conquered, ie the people living their today as Itallians in Itally and Turks in Turkey have never been ruled or occupied by anyone else.
 
Very interesting.


Edited by Bulldog - 11-Jul-2006 at 15:06
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 20:15
Originally posted by bulldog

The oldest surviving Civillisations alive today would be,
 
Itallian -
Turkish of Turkey


Confused

there is Greece, Armenia, Egypt, Iran (Persia), Israel, China, India + Pakistan (assumingly the indus valley civilizations were progenitors of both countries)...unless you think old is 1000 A.D.

Moreover, "Italy" was only a geographical term until modern times. And the current Italians are a mix of the Romans and  germanic tribes, Greeks, Africans, ostrogoths, visigoths (and any other goths you can think off) and etc...while Turkey (Anatolia) of 1000 AD you speak off was full of "non-Turk" people like Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Persians, Romans and of course the newcomers (Turks)... it doesnt take one day to "Turkify" all those people...




Edited by mamikon - 11-Jul-2006 at 20:30
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  Quote raygun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 21:13
Just a question.
 
If we adopt the "Out of Africa" theory of the evolution of man, then shldn't the Africans be the oldest people, and potentially the oldest civilization? I said potentially 'cause I haven't read anything about any African ancient cities, but who knows....
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 21:32
there is Greece, Armenia, Egypt, Iran (Persia), Israel, China, India + Pakistan (assumingly the indus valley civilizations were progenitors of both countries)...unless you think old is 1000 A.D.
 
 
Your missing the point, I clearly stated civillisations which still exist today, the ancient Hellenic city states do not have a continious unbroken lineage to modern day people of Greece as they stop rulling the area thousands of years ago. The Roman invasion, then the conversion to Christianity and a whole new Roman then Roman-Byzantine civillisation, followed by on top of that Turkic civillisation, has all added to modern day Greece. The ancient city state civillisation is not alive today, its a part of history, there are obviously still connections not all was lost but it cannot be called the same.
 
The same can be applied to Ancient Egyption civillisation, Persia, India, Armenia etc
 
Israel is an intersting one as Jewih civillisation has managed to perserve its unique identity and return to the areas it began from.
 
China also to a large extent kept its civillisation from after the Mongol conquest although there was a brief Japanease invasion.
 
I was referring to civillisations existing today, ie people who managed to stay in control of their lands and not be occupied and put under a different civillisation to their own.
 
Itallian
Chinease (to a large extent)
Turkish of Turkey
 
Fit this category.

Moreover, "Italy" was only a geographical term until modern times. And the current Italians are a mix of the Romans and  germanic tribes, Greeks, Africans, ostrogoths, visigoths (and any other goths you can think off) and etc...while Turkey (Anatolia) of 1000 AD you speak off was full of "non-Turk" people like Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, Georgians, Persians, Romans and of course the newcomers (Turks)... it doesnt take one day to "Turkify" all those people...
 
There is no such thing as the "pure race", I'm simply referring to nations, it doesn't matter what races of people exist within a nation, race doesn't make a nation, language, identity, common history, common culture, to a certain religion etc etc
 
All these are things that Itallians have in common, it doesn't matter that there may be different races among them, that's not important, for someone to think its of any value it just bring "racism" into the equation.
 
The same applies to Turks of Turkey, also I stated that the Turks of Turkey always claim their historical heritage which goes back to the Selcuk Empire prior to that the Karakhanids, Uygurs etc The Turks in Turkey trace a direct unconquered identity, they have never been conquered by non-Turkic civillisation.
 
 
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 22:08
Originally posted by bulldog

"Your missing the point, I clearly stated civillisations which still exist today, the ancient Hellenic city states do not have a continious unbroken lineage to modern day people of Greece as they stop rulling the area thousands of years ago. The Roman invasion, then the conversion to Christianity and a whole new Roman then Roman-Byzantine civillisation, followed by on top of that Turkic civillisation, has all added to modern day Greece. The ancient city state civillisation is not alive today, its a part of history, there are obviously still connections not all was lost but it cannot be called the same."'


So if they (Greeks) ruled Greece for a couple of hundred years and for the next thousand years another empire ruled Greece, Greek civilization somehow ceases to exist? you cant be serious...is this your definition of "civilization"?

Originally posted by bulldog

I was referring to civillisations existing today, ie people who managed to stay in control of their lands and not be occupied and put under a different civillisation to their own.


the land now known as Israel has been governed by foreign powers for how long?

Originally posted by bulldog


There is no such thing as the "pure race", I'm simply referring to nations, it doesn't matter what races of people exist within a nation, race doesn't make a nation, language, identity, common history, common culture, to a certain religion etc etc
 
All these are things that Itallians have in common, it doesn't matter that there may be different races among them, that's not important, for someone to think its of any value it just bring "racism" into the equation.


..Italy reunified in 1860s. During this time it has been reported that about 90% of the populace did not know the National language...

using your own definition, how does "Turkish of Turkey" (whatever that means) qualify?

how do you come up with those abstract definitions and pick "civilizations" to fit these definitions out of thin air...I bet you didnt even know that Italy as a nation has only been alive for a mere 150 years or so.




Edited by mamikon - 11-Jul-2006 at 22:10
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 22:28

So if they (Greeks) ruled Greece for a couple of hundred years and for the next thousand years another empire ruled Greece, Greek civilization somehow ceases to exist? you cant be serious...is this your definition of "civilization"?

It wouldn;t necessarily "cease" to exist but it would be diluted and slowly disintegrated and changed to a point its unrecognisable to what existed before by the dominant civillisation of the ruling powers. The previous civillisation would not be living in the next thousand years, only traces of it and the history would remain.

the land now known as Israel has been governed by foreign powers for how long?
 
It doesn't matter, Jews preserved their language, religion and customs thanks to the religion which preserved their civillisation to a large extent.
 
 
..Italy reunified in 1860s. During this time it has been reported that about 90% of the populace did not know the National language...
 
The part about the language is ridiculous, you wouldn't be able to back that up would you?
 
Italy as a nation has only been alive for a mere 150 years or so.
 
Itally traces its historical nation lineage back to the Romans, since the time of the Romans no non-Roman has totally conquered and ruled the people. As the people were never conquered they kept their civillisation, language, culture etc and evolved into today's Itally via themselves.
 
So it doesn't matter wether the actuall country Itally has only been alive for 150 years, the people that formed it were in existance before then and had never been totally ruled over since the times of their national ancestors the Romans.
 

 
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 22:51
Originally posted by bulldog

It wouldn;t necessarily "cease" to exist but it would be diluted and slowly disintegrated and changed to a point its unrecognisable to what existed before by the dominant civillisation of the ruling powers. The previous civillisation would not be living in the next thousand years, only traces of it and the history would remain.


and you lived through these years to witness this? why dont you ask Greek members here if they think their current civilization if a phantom of what it was three millenia ago (as you claim)...obviously nothing is static, and "civilizations" do evolve over time, but you cant say that just because they did not have self rule, they lost their civilization. Armenia has been under a muslim rule for a close thousand years and guess what I am still Christian...and the Armenian Church more or less still carries the traditions it had aquired at the time of its creation..

Originally posted by bulldog

It doesn't matter, Jews preserved their language, religion and customs thanks to the religion which preserved their civillisation to a large extent.


What makes you think Greeks and Armenians didnt? Just because today you dont see half-naked Greeks running around in Athens yelling "Toga! Toga!" doesnt mean they have lost their civilization.

Originally posted by bulldog

The part about the language is ridiculous, you wouldn't be able to back that up would you?


as a matter of fact I would; read Barricades and Borders, (plus my European History professor said so Thumbs Up)

Originally posted by bulldog

Itally traces its historical nation lineage back to the Romans


Greece traces its historical nation lineage back to the Etruscans.

Originally posted by bulldog

, since the time of the Romans no non-Roman has totally conquered and ruled the people.


no one did? I dont see "Roman Empire" on today's world map, do you?

Originally posted by bulldog

As the people were never conquered they kept their civillisation, language, culture etc and evolved into today's Itally via themselves


anything to back up this claim? or just opinion?


Edited by mamikon - 11-Jul-2006 at 23:05
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