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TheARRGH
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Topic: What are the limits of biomechanical advancement? Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 01:06 |
I was working out the other day, and a thought came to me: How strong can I get?
Essentially, the question was: what is the limit of physical strength to which a human could be brought in exercise? Is there a point at which a human simply could not become stronger, and if so, what is it?
I realize that bone strength, time of exercise, and so much more play a part, so here is a thought experiment to masticate mentally:
Assuming that: 1.An individual exercises essentially from the point they can walk. 2.Their bones cannot break (it is a question of muscular limits, not skeletal) 3.They eat an incredibly healthy diet. 4.They exercise as often as it is advisable to do so, every other day, and stick to a preconceived and precise format of increasing the weight by a small amount roughly every two weeks. 5. They do not physically degrade with age (feasible, assuming genetics gets much better and much cheaper.) 6.they live to be very old (call it 100 years.)
What do you think the limit might be, based on experience, knowledge of biology and mechanics, wild guesses, or (maybe) prophetic dreams?
Bear in mind that this is just a random thought-experiment, and precise accuracy isn't terribly necessary. Post whatever you think, and don't worry too much about whether you have the level of expertise required to answer. I'm not even sure I have the level of expertise required to ask the right question!
Have fun.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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DwayneBarry
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 13:14 |
Well look at world power lifting and olympic weight lifting records. Given that these are almost all certainly even greater than what is naturally possible because they were augmented by anabolic steroid and other drug use, they give a good idea of what is at least "humanly" possible.
Certainly aging starts affecting most people by the mid-30s or early 40ish and performance decreases from then on as you age.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 13:22 |
VoR, the formula you propose is a perfect example of how an otherwise
normal individual will only grow to be about 4-5 feet in height. That
type of intense muscular exercise will see the individual grow
muscularly at the expense of their height.
A person who follows your formula from birth will be beaten by a
6 ft 2 person who begins your formula at age 18, when the two are both
30.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 15:10 |
Who doesnt love musuclar midgets though?
Edited by Ponce de Leon - 19-Mar-2008 at 15:10
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Dolphin
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 15:32 |
Muscular, or just irregularly proportioned? Midgets (or people of small stature, if ya must know) have a genetic predisposition to weight gain..
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 16:15 |
OK, ok--fine. Assume that they start at about age 17-18, then. It would be a little bit frightening to have an experiment that ended up with a bunch of buff little Warwick Davises running around.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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DwayneBarry
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 16:20 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
Is there a point at which a human simply could not become stronger, and if so, what is it?
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Adaptation to exercise, whether it be strength training as in your case, or endurance exercise does not behave linearly. That is you will not get x amount stronger for each month you train. Just making numbers up, you will get 4x stronger the first month or two, 2x per month the next 4 months, x stronger per month for the next year, etc.
IOW, you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns and plateaus where very little gains are made. If you look at world class athletes, they do not get appreciably faster or stronger year after year despite continuing to train and compete maybe for upwards of a decade.
You essentially reach a ceiling, where variations in performance are largely determined by such factors as injury, illness and periodization of training. And being "in form" (as Europeans would say) allows for a performance that is essentially comparable to your previous best or maybe if lucky ever so slightly better.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 16:51 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
OK, ok--fine. Assume that they start at about age 17-18, then. It would be a little bit frightening to have an experiment that ended up with a bunch of buff little Warwick Davises running around.
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You lost me on warwick
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 21:28 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwick_DavisWelcome to the horror. @Dwayneberry: Makes a lot of sense. However, now I'm wondering that prompts that sudden leveling out? A structural difficulty, a chemical one, or a combination of several?
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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DwayneBarry
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 15:36 |
Originally posted by TheARRGH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warwick_Davis
Welcome to the horror. @Dwayneberry: Makes a lot of sense. However, now I'm wondering that prompts that sudden leveling out? A structural difficulty, a chemical one, or a combination of several?
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What ultimately limits strength is how big muscle cells can get. Humans do not add muscle cells in any significant numbers if at all when a muscle gets bigger. I would think at some point oxygen diffusion from the capillaries into the innermost parts of a muscle cell might become limiting?
Any given individuals ultimate muscle size is probably limited by hormones and other endocrine factors. We certainly know if you take anabolic steriods you can get bigger/stronger than you probably would have naturally. We have recently learned about myostatin which is a negative regulator of muscle size. If you get rid of it, muscles get much bigger.
There are various animals, including a handful of humans that have been identified, that have defective myostatin genes and end up abnormally muscled.
Here's some pictures:
or
or a human identified with defective myostatin genes.
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 17:25 |
Interesting--and somewhat unsettling..
I wonder what the tensile strength of muscle fiber is. Most strength depends on, as you said, the size of the cells. But presumably there's some structural component, as there is with any mechanical system.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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Dolphin
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 19:50 |
There are no limits anways...look what they could do in the 70's or whatever.. P.s I think there's also a reference in Daft Punk's song to this clip..
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Knights
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Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 01:49 |
Good discussion going here guys. DwaneBarry - you said you recently learned about this sort of thing - are you at uni?
I won't say much at the moment, but I think a vital factor that needs to be taken into account is waste removal and transport of substances. The reason cells have remained minuscule is for ease of removal of wastes like Carbon Dioxide. Furthermore, the sheer bulk of oversized cells would produce excessive waste substances. This would consequently put a strain on the bloodstream, which has a limit to the amount of waste that can be dissolved or suspended in the plasma. So the physiological ramifications of having grossly enlarged muscle tissue may reduce the efficiency of the circulatory system.
- Knights -
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TheARRGH
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Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 04:02 |
Now we're getting into some good detail...
That's an interesting line of thinking--waste products...
Another factor might be muscle cell TYPE--I just started wondering whether all muscle cells are the same general design, composed of the same proteins in the same configuration...
Admittedly, since we're talking HUMAN muscle cells, it might not really be an issue. But I can't help wondering whether you could build a better muscle cell in the same way you can make a tougher plastic or more resilient composite.
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Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche
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