QuoteReplyTopic: How much of pakistan was part of Afghanistan? Posted: 28-Aug-2009 at 20:13
Well the reason for that is....after British left...they bestow Pakistani punjabis the power... in return for pakistani punjabis faithful serventite to British...against Iraq, Afghanistan, World war I and world...so why would Pakistani Punjabi ever want to become slave of Hindus?
Below is list history of Pakistan ’s security institutions.
ISI:
ISI was the brainchild of Australian-born British Army officer, Major General R. Cawthome, then Deputy Chief of Staff in the Pakistan Army.
Pakistan Militray:
Remnant of British India army, made up of Indian-Muslims whom have faithfully served British for 200 years... Including but not limited against Iraq , Afghanistan , World War 1 and 2.
Army: First two Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army where General Sir Frank Messervy (August 15, 1947 - February 10, 1948) General Sir Douglas David Gracey ( February 11, 1948 - January 16, 1951 .
Air force.
Air force Chiefs Air Vice Marshal Allan Perry-Keane (August 15, 1947 - February 17, 1949) Air Vice Marshal R.L.R. Atcherley (February 18, 1949 - May 6, 1951) Air Vice Marshal L.W. Cannon (May 7, 1951 - June 19, 1955) Air Vice Marshal A.W.B. McDonald (June 20, 1955 - July 22, 1957)
The answer is no if you are talking about the country with the borders of what we know today as Afghanistan, which was sketched up by the British and the Russians to create a buffer between them during the reign of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan. His predecessors, Mir Yaqub and Sher Ali led some disastrous campaigns against British India, which led to territorial concessions in what is today NWFP.
Lets not forget Shah Shuja, who infact colluded against the Afghan rulers(his own family so to speak) and played an integral part in allowing the strategic revenue generating and agricultural rich/breadbasket regions(Peshawer Valley, Indus Valley of Sindh/Panjab) to be taken over by the British and their protectorate(Sikhs). A factor which severely stunted Afghanistan's ability to sustain itself, perpetuates its isolation/infighting and limits its potential especially when we consider its historical past. Shah Shuja stands out as an individual who represents the epitomy of divide and rule, I dont know how he is known today in Afghanistan, but his actions where equally quite detrimental to Afghanistan as a nation state.
The British where notorious as colonial rulers for causing political and ethnic strife wherever they left their mark, particularly in the Middle East region, Pakistan, Afghanistan, South Asia but also in Africa. Despite a lapse of 60 years or more, the ramifications of their rule are still being felt the world over.
Out of curiousity, Afghanan, do you think the British would have eventually pushed further into Afghanistan had World War II not been so disastrous for them and/or they remained the colonial rulers of South Asia? Or if Afghanistan had more resourses to offer, would there have been greater impetus in securing it? Would this have been a positive or negative thing in the modern political sense of the region in our times? Im curious, as we often read that Afghanistan was left as a buffer state, and due to the logistical nightmare of mounting a campagin to annex it would have required considerable effort. A simple agreement with Russia(itself overextended) seems too simplistic of a reason. While not discounting the fighting spirit of the people as a factor which certainly proved considerable, they(British) did send expeditions/forces in this regard on several occasions and had a reputation for their resolve in accomplishing tasks which were in the interest of ''her majesty's Empire''. They had accomplished many ''impossible'' tasks and previously unconquered regions before thanks to the advances of modern warfare and technology. I wonder, what in the ultimate sense, truly stopped them at the border. anyhow, whats your take on the issue?
Well said... what is interesting is our own muslim brothers..India muslim(pakistani) whom we afghans...historically were their protector.... have back stabe us afghans by becoming seccessor of British Raj against us.
My own take is that after they conquered Lahore, they pretty much saw the rest of the area as unnecessary and causing too much grief for too little gain. Lahore was considered a Frontier town in the Raj days and Rawalpindi was the HQ of the Britsh Army on the North West Frontier.
On contrare, it was after first anglo-afghan war that British thinking changed...1st Anglo-afghan war... when the Britis first conqured Kabul....they brought their family, and were busy playing cricket(just like in India)...and then about around 16,000 Brits forces were killed and the Brtis were defeated from kabul.
Pashtuns comprise over 15.42% of Pakistan P or 25.6 million people. In Afghanistan they make up an estimated 39% to 42% of the population or 12.4 to 13.3 million people. The exact numbers remain uncertain, particularly in Afghanistan, and are affected by approximately 3 million Afghan Refugees that remain in Pakistan, of which 81.5% or 2.49 million are ethnic Pashtuns. An unknown number of refugees continue to reside in Iran. A cumulative population assessment suggests a total of around 42 million across the whole region
The Notable Afghan Tribes of Afghanistan are Ghilzai and the Durrani (Ahmad Shah's tribe). Others include the Wardak, Jaji, Tani, Jadran, Mangal, Khugiani, Safi, Mohmand and Shinwari. Those major tribes in Pakistan are the Tareen, Yusufzai, Tarklani, Mohmand, Mohammadzai, Niazi, Ghilzai, Lodhi, Suri, Marvat, Lohani, Kakar, Mando, Jadoon, Mahsood, Wazir, Khatak, Orakzai, Davar, Bangash, Bajauri, Swati, Afridi, Bangash, Turi and Banuchi.
In major classification Pushtuns primarily are divided into four sections that further get divide into tribes and clans and further into sub-divided branches. Rarely some clan does not exist across border but may have its central region on any of the side.
yes, that is true. Several of these valleys paid tribute to the mehter(Beg) of Chitral and where cut off from their natural and historical routes to Northern Pakistan(Chitral) when they were forcibly conquered and converted to Islam by the ''Iron Amir'' of Afghanistan.
Yea but at that time there was NO Pakistan. In fact after creation of pakistan as a home for India's muslim, the Chitral regions--called Northen area....is still controlled by central gov...just like FATA.
Also, I agree, the region of Northern Pakistan was also called Dardistan a long time ago, they are an indigenous group formerly known as Dard. They are an ancient people unto themselves and should not be confused with the more populous Iranic or Indic groups.
You are right...but in term of culture and race...the Dardic people are more closer to Iranic people then Indic people.
Interestingly, according to the Durand line agreements, those regions should still be considered associated with Chitral and subsequently Pakistani administrative control.
The Pakistani government should put a case forward in this regard so that those people in Nuristan forcibly captured by the Afghans can be liberated and a historical unjust be corrected. In the case of the Kalash, the establishment of the Durand Line in effect, protected them from the Pograms of the Afghan Iron Amir otherwise they would be an extinct group today .
This is plain stupid... first of all Durrand line is never meant to be international boundary in the first place to separate the two countries.(google durrand treaty) It purpose was ‘fixing of the limits of their [Amir’s and British India’s] respective spheres of influence’, the object being the extension of British authority and not that of the Indian frontier at that time.
Second... Pakistan IS not a successor state to Britain but an entirely new state carved out of British India. Whatever, treaty rights existed were therefore extinguished. Unless Pakistani think they were fathered/mothered by Angreez that they can claim their treaty.
Third, most important of all Afghanistan had repudiated all treaties which denied to it the right to exert this influence among all the Pashtuns; [The Afghan government convened a Loya Jirga or Grand Assembly (which included the National Assembly) in Kabul on July 26, 1949 and formally and specifically abrogated the Durand Agreement of 1893, the Anglo-Afghan Pact of 1905, the Treaty of Rawalpindi 1919, the Anglo Afghan Treaty of 1921 and any other treaties which referred to the status of the Pashtuns.
Fouth, After the treaty of Gandamak (1879) Afghanistan was no more a sovereign state...more over durrand Treaty of 1893 was signed under duress and, therefore the line drawn pursuant to that treaty was invalid!!!
Fifth, The five articles of the Rawalpindi Peace Treaty (not a friendship treaty) [August 8, 1919] called for the withdrawal of British troops and the cessation of British subsidies and stopping the flow of Afghan war materials through India. The treaty made no mention of Afghan sovereignty or independence. On the insistence of the Afghan delegation a rider (letter) to the effect that it had been implied was attached to the treaty by Mr. Hamilton Grant (The British Plenipotentiary). The letter ran as follows:
"...the said treaty and this letter leave Afghanistan officially free and independent in its internal and external affairs. Moreover, this war has cancelled all previous Treaties".
Even when you travel to Chitral (Chitral City), you will notice that there is still considerable inter-change and many settlements of Nuristani from Afghanistan within this region of northern Pakistan and they are often treated as local people(s), so the social bonds still appear to be intact. Many of them have integrated on a much better scale vs Afghans of other nationalities (i.e. Turkmen,Tajiks etc..) within Pakistani society.
P.S. have you gone to Chitral recently?, last time I went was a good couple years ago, how is the Lowari pass progressing??
The reason for integration of Chitral to pakistan is first their Shia religion(specially of unleashing of Wahabi/Talibans by pakistan state with the money of Arab Sheikhs)...on other hand the Turkman, Tajik and other Suni Afghan/Turkic people does not feel any connection to pakistan...beacuse Pakistan was created for Muslims primarily of Indian cultural background based on problems and conflicts which pertained strictly with India...with whom the Central asian people---Tajik, Turkman, Pashton, Baloch and... feel very little in common with.
This all depends how you want to start Afghan history. Most modern day states did not have their modern names.
The state of Afghanistan was formed in 1747.
The claim of Afghan race is a bit misleading. Afghans are more of a nationality than a race. The Afghan people are mainly of Mongoloid and Caucasianoid stock- 2 completely different backgrounds.
here is from the CIA world factbook:
Ahmad Shah DURRANI unified the Pashtun tribes and founded Afghanistan in 1747. The country served as a buffer between the British and Russian empires until it won independence from notional British control in 1919. A brief experiment in democracy ended in a 1973 coup and a 1978 Communist counter-coup. The Soviet Union invaded in 1979 to support the tottering Afghan Communist regime, touching off a long and destructive war. The USSR withdrew in 1989 under relentless pressure by internationally supported anti-Communist mujahedin rebels. A series of subsequent civil wars saw Kabul finally fall in 1996 to the Taliban, a hardline Pakistani-sponsored movement that emerged in 1994 to end the country's civil war and anarchy. Following the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks in New York City, a US, Allied, and anti-Taliban Northern Alliance military action toppled the Taliban for sheltering Osama BIN LADIN. The UN-sponsored Bonn Conference in 2001 established a process for political reconstruction that included the adoption of a new constitution, a presidential election in 2004, and National Assembly elections in 2005. In December 2004, Hamid KARZAI became the first democratically elected president of Afghanistan and the National Assembly was inaugurated the following December. Despite gains toward building a stable central government, a resurgent Taliban and continuing provincial instability - particularly in the south and the east - remain serious challenges for the Afghan Government.
Well...when we talk about Race...we mean majoirty of people...just Turks in Turkey are from Turkish race, and Pakistan from Indic race....85% of population of country--Punjabi, Sindi, Saraki, Hindko. 85% of population of Afghanistan are from Afghanian race. As anthropologist Carleton S. Coon in his book...The Races of Europe classifies Afghanian race as asIrano-Afghan race...
Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Aimak 4%, Baloch 2%, and others like Pamiri, Yaqobi 4%
Are major Iranic people….Hazara 9% on other hand are Mongolied but Hazara speak major Iranic language---Dari. Other then Turkic people---Turkmen 3% and Uzbak 9% all the people of Afghanistan are either racially Afghanian or are culturally.
The Nuristanis never chose to be part of Afghanistan. Amir Abdur-Rahman conquered them and forced them to convert.
The Kafirs (Nuristanis) used to dislike the Pashtuns (and most other Afghans) to a great extant. A boy was not considered a man until he went down to Kunar anor Nangarhar and returned with the head of a Pashtun.
They got along much better with the Chitralis and the Kafirs of the Bashgal Valley even paid tribute to Chitral.
The Kalash are not related closely to the Nuristanis, even their religion used to be different and they speak different languages. The Nuristanis used to consider the Kalash to be a weak race and servile race, they would demand anything in a Kalash village and Kalash would have to give it to them.
And yes, the Greek theoory has been largely disproven.
On contrare Nooristani are the most partoric and hardcore afghan nationalist...the Nooristani even claim they are the true---Pashtons and because of arabs the moved to moutians of nooristan until Amir Abdul Rahman converted them to Islam in 19 century. Jamel Noristani was king Amanullah khan general who with Nadir Khan conqured Wana Wazirstistan from British during 3rd anglo-afghan war.... all his troops were Nooristanis...in fact unlike the Punjabi muslim and the Indianized ethnic Afghan---Pathan whom faithfully served British against not only muslim of Afghanistan but Iraq, and even fight for Saheeb master in Baiitul Moqadaas...there were NO Nooristani troops under command of Angreez....there were few Chitralis but most of them did not join the fight against afghanistan during 3 Anglo-Afghan war.... almost all the British troops that fight against afghansitan were from Bangal, and Panjab ragements.
Since I've had enough of Afghans misusing this forum to spread their propaganda I will post the truth about this issue, which has been manupulated by Pashtun Afghans (the other ethnic gorups are oppossed to Afghan Pashtuns so are the Pakistani Pashtuns whom by the way who dont give two hoots about Afghanistan)
About twenty-three miles south of Pillar XII, which is erected on the Saricol range of Pamir, lies the beginning of the "North West Frontier". Pillar XII is located at latitude 37o20'5"N and longitude 74o24'50"E. It was erected by a joint Anglo-Russian Commission in September 1895, on the left bank of a tributary of the Tegermen-Su river, one mile from its mouth; and it is the last among pillars, which carry the Russo-Afghan frontier from the eastern end of Lake Victoria (Wood's Lake) to the Chinese frontier.
The protocol embodying the final agreement was signed on July 22, 1887 and is known as the Pamir Agreement. The demarcated boundary according to the 'The Pamir Agreement' remains unchanged to this day. This border was internationally recognized as the border between Russia (then Soviet Union) and Afghanistan. Today this boundary is the internationally recognized border between the Central Asian countries (former Soviet republics as successor independent states of Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Kyrgyzstan) and Afghanistan.
The Afghan frontier turns west from Pillar XII and follows the northern ridge of the Sarikol Range bordering the Taghdumbash Pamir. It then curves southward over the Wakhjir Pass to join the present Pakistan-Afghan frontier, which is often referred to as the Durand line. While negotiating the Durand Line, Amir Abdul Rahman Khan of Afghanistan had received a British mission in a formal Durbar which was held in November 1893, in the Salam Khana Hall, where the civil and military officers of Kabul and chiefs of various tribes were present.
The Amir in his speech gave an outline to the audience of all the understanding which had been agreed upon and the provisions which had been signed, and urged upon them the necessity for adhering firmly to British alliance. He pointed out that the interests of Afghanistan and England were identical.
The Amir further told the audience that it was for the first time that Afghanistan had a definite frontier which would prevent future misunderstandings and would render Afghanistan strong and powerful after it had been consolidated with the aid in arms and ammunition which would be received from the British.
The demarcation of the Durand Line was carried out in fulfilment of the Anglo-Afghan agreement' of November 12, 1893 between Amir Abdul Rahman Khan of Afghanistan and Sir Henry Mortimer Durand, Foreign Secretary to the Government of India.
The demarcation of the Indo-Afghan frontier, as defined in the above mentioned agreement, was divided into sections and was carried out for the most part by the joint Anglo-Afghan Commission during the year 1894-1896. In 1947, the Indian sub-continent emerged as two independent dominions of India and Pakistan. West Pakistan by right of its location inherited the former North West Frontier of British India and the Indo-Afghan boundary established vide the agreement of 1893.
There are some circles who continue to spread disinformation that the agreement was signed under duress and has a validity of 100 years. Unfortunately, the propaganda emanates from a country in the neighbourhood of Pakistan. This country also instigates anti Pakistan elements in the Afghan government to issue controversial statements undermining Pak-Afghan relations. A host of websites of this country also disseminate anti Pakistan propaganda. It is therefore necessary to put the facts in the correct perspective as follows:
• The International Border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is based on the map attached with the original Agreement of 1893.
• Clause 6 of the Agreement clearly states that the agreement is regarded by both the parties as a full and satisfactory settlement of all the principal differences of opinion which have arisen between them. The Agreement has been reaffirmed by successive Afghan rulers.
• 1905 Treaty with Amir HabibullahKhan continuing the Agreements which had existed between the British Government and Amir Abdul Rahman Khan. Para 2 states "I also have acted, am acting and will act upon the same agreement and I will not contravene them in any dealing or in any promise."
• Treaty of peace between the British Government and the Independent Afghan Government concluded at Rawalpindi on 8th August 1919. Article 5 states that "the Afghan Government accepts the Indo-Afghan frontier accepted by the Late Amir.”
• Friendly and Commercial Relations treaty between Great Britain and Afghanistan at Kabul on 22 November 1921. Article 2 of the treaty states that, "The two high contracting parties accept the Indo-Afghan frontier as accepted by the Afghan Government under Article V of the treaty concluded at Rawalpindi on 8th August 1919."
• Notes were exchanged between His Majesty's Government and Afghan Minister in London, 1930 (His Highness General Shah Wali Khan to Mr. Arthur Henderson), Afghan Legation 6th May 1930. Both parties ~greed that it was their understanding that the Treaty of Kabul of 22 November 1921 continued to have full force and effect.
• On 13 June 1948, Shah Wali Khan, the Afghan envoy to Pakistan declared, " Our King has already stated, and I, as the representative of Afghanistan, declare that Afghanistan has no claims on frontier territory and even if there were any, they have been given up in favour of Pakistan. Anything contrary to this which may have appeared in the press in the past or may appear in the future should not be given credence at all and should be considered just a canard."
The Pak-Afghan International Border has sound technical and legal background. According to international law, treaties of the extinct state concerning boundary lines remain valid and all rights and duties arising from such treaties of the extinct state devolve on the absorbing state. Pakistan is the successor state of British India. The following is worth mentioning:
• A country to country treaty does not need any revision unless both parties desire change.
• International Agreement once finally concluded can be revoked only bilaterally and not unilaterally.
• Unless otherwise provided in the concluded treaty about its duration, the treaty becomes of a permanent nature. This is applicable to the 1893 Treaty Agreement.
• International Law does not lay down the maximum life period of one hundred years for an internationally concluded border agreement between the two states, when fixed border validity has not been mentioned in its text.
It goes beyond doubt to say that the international border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is a settled matter and is globalfy accepted. It is supported by International Law and the treaty of 1893 has been ratified several times by successive Afghan governments.
As long as Afghanistan refuses to accept the Durand Line as the permanent international boundary between Pakistan and Afghanistan, there is no reliable way to combat extremism and terrorism in the region.
Durand Line – the present border between Afghanistan and Pakistan – was agreed to as official boundary line between British India and Afghanistan on 12 November 1893. Sir Henry Mortimer Durand from the British side and Amir Abdul Rahman Khan from the Afghan side signed the historical document.
Pakistan and Afghanistan, as successor states, are bound to honour this agreement.
The present spread of religious intolerance and extremism in the region is, in great part, attributable to the fact that the successive and successor governments of Afghanistan have declined to accept the Durand Line as permanent boundary between the two countries. Uncertainty of the boundary rules and impermanent nature of the physical border are playing in favour of extremist elements on both sides of the dividing line.
Moreover, there was a whisper campaign a while ago that the Durand Line agreement was valid for 100 years and after that the document is legally null and void now. The original text shows that there is no time-expiry clause in the agreement.
Here is the complete text of the agreement:
Agreement between His Highness Amir Abdul Rahman Khan, G.C.E.I Amir of Afghanistan and its Dependencies, on the one part, and Sir Henry Mortimer Durand, K.C.I.E., C.S.I., Foreign Secretary to the Government of India, representing the Government of India, on the other part
Whereas certain questions have arisen regarding the frontier of Afghanistan on the side of India, and whereas both His Highness the Amir and the Government of India are desirous of settling these questions by a friendly understanding, and of fixing the limit of their respective spheres of influence, so that for the future there may be no difference of opinion on the subject between the allied Governments, it is hereby agree as follows:
1. The eastern and southern frontier of High Highness’s dominions, from Wakhan to the Persian border, shall follow the line shown in the map attached to this agreement.
2. The British Government of India will at no time exercise interference in the territories lying beyond this line on the side of Afghanistan, and His Highness the Amir will at no time exercise interference in the territories lying beyond this line on the side of India.
3. The British Government thus agrees to His Highness the Amir retaining Asmar and the valley above it, as far as Chanak. His Highness agrees on the other hand that he will at no time exercise interference in Swat, Bajaur or Chitral, including the Arnawai or Bashgal valley. The British Government also agrees to leave to His Highness the Birmal tract as shown in the detailed map already given to High Highness, who relinquishes his claim to the rest of the Waziri country and Dawar. His Highness also relinquishes his claim to Chageh [now, Chagai. Ed.].
4. The frontier line will hereafter be laid down in detail and demarcated, wherever this may be practicable and desirable, by Joint British and Afghan Commissioners, whose object will be to arrive by mutual understanding at a boundary which shall adhere with the greatest possible exactness to the line shown in the map attached to this agreement, having due regard to the existing local rights of villages adjoining the frontier.
5. With reference to the question of Chaman, the Amir withdraws his objection to the new British Cantonment and concedes to the British Government the rights purchased by him in the Sirkai-Tilerai water. At this part of the frontier, the line will be drawn as follows:
From the crest of Khwaja Amran range near the Pasha Kotal, which remains in British territory, the line will run in such a direction as to leave Murgha Chaman and the Sharobo spring to Afghanistan, and to pass half way between the New Chaman Fort and the Afghan outpost known locally as Lashkar Dand. The line will then pass half way between the railway station and the hill known as the Mian Baldak, and, turning southwards, will rejoin the Khwaja Arman range, leaving the Gwasha Post in British territory, and the road to Shorawak to the west and south of Gwasha in Afghanistan. The British Government will not exercise any interference within half a mile of the road.
6. The above articles of agreement are regarded by the government of India and His Highness the Amir of Afghanistan as a full and satisfactory settlement of all the principal differences of opinion which have arisen between them in regard to the frontier; and both the Government of India and His Highness the Amir undertake that any differences of detail, such as those which will have to be considered hereafter by the officers appointed to demarcate the boundary line, shall be settled in a friendly spirit, so as to remove for the future as far as possible all causes of doubt and misunderstanding between the two Governments.
7. Being fully satisfied of His Highness’s good-will to the British Government, and wishing to see Afghanistan independent and strong, the Government of India will raise no objection to the purchase and import by His Highness of munitions of war, and they will themselves grant him some help in this respect. Further, in order to mark their sense of the friendly spirit in which High Highness the Amir has entered into these negotiations, the Government of India undertake to increase by the sum of six lakhs of rupees a year the subsidy of twelve lakhs now granted to His Highness.
(Signed) H. M. Durand
(Signed) Amir Abdul Rahman Khan
Kabu, the 12th November 1893
Note: Original agreement is available in the national archive of Pakistan. This report has been produced from the copy available at the Area Study Centre, Peshawar University.
-- Following independence, the NWFP voted to join Pakistan in a referendum in 1947. However, Afghanistan's loya jirga of 1949 declared the Durand Line invalid as they saw it as ex parte on their side since British India ceased to exist in 1947 with the independence of Pakistan. This had no tangible effect as there has never been a move to enforce such a declaration. Additionally, world courts have universally upheld uti possidetis juris, i.e, binding bilateral agreements with or between colonial powers are "passed down" to successor independent states, as with most of Africa. A unilateral declaration by one party has no effect; boundary changes must be made bilaterally. Thus, the Durand Line boundary remains in effect today as the international boundary and is recognized as such by nearly all nations. Despite pervasive internet rumors to the contrary, U.S. Dept. of State and the British Foreign Commonwealth Office documents and spokespersons have recently confirmed that the Durand Line, like virtually all international boundaries, has no expiration date, nor is their any mention of such in any Durand Line documents. (The 1921 treaty expiration refers only to the 1921 agreements.)
-- Afghanistan was created in 1747 AD by the Punjab-born (city of Multan in present-day Pakistan) Pashtun named Ahmed Shah Abdali. The fact is Abdali conquered the Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Baluchis, Punjabis, etc. This was a forceful occupation of various lands/peoples subdued to the Abdali monarchy. Per Encyclopedia Britannica, "Ahmad Shah began by capturing Ghazni from the Ghilzai Pashtuns, and then wresting Kabul from the local ruler. In 1749 the Mughal ruler ceded sovereignty over Sindh Province and the areas west of the Indus River to Ahmad Shah in order to save his capital from Afghan attack. Ahmad Shah then set out westward to take possession of Herat, which was ruled by Nadir Shah's grandson, Shah Rukh. Herat fell to Ahmad after almost a year of siege and bloody conflict, as did Mashhad (in present-day Iran). Ahmad next sent an army to subdue the areas north of the Hindu Kush. In short order, the powerful army brought under its control the Turkmen, Uzbek, Tajik, and Hazara tribes".
-- Now many people can argue that Afghanistan's creation was illegal because the land belonged to Iran-based Safavids/Sassanians/etc and India-based Mughals/Mauryas/etc until Abdali's creation in 1747 AD. But the fact of the matter is people and its lands constantly evolve to new geo-political environments changing boundaries and nationhoods. Prior to 1747 AD, the region of Afghanistan was ruled by Persian Achaemenians and Sassanians, Greeks, Scythians, Hepthalites, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, and many others (currently by the USA). Mauryas and Mughals ruled a large portion of Afghanistan (almost all of Pashtun areas). By the way, the Muslim rulers of South Asia were "mostly" Turks originating from Central Asia who also ruled the Pashtuns.
-- Afghanistan's creation was legal in the same way Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. were created later on. The boundaries between Iran and Afghanistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan, etc were created by the British and Russians. So the few Afghans beating the drum of Durand Line (Pak-Afghan boundary) is pointless. By the same token, all boundaries of Afghanistan are questionable. Why should only Pashtun areas of Pakistan be merged to Afghanistan? Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan. Should Tajikistan lay claim to Tajik lands of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan to Uzbek lands in Afghanistan, Turkmenistan to Turkmen lands in Afghanistan, etc.?
-- The ethnicity-based countries like Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, & Turkmenistan have much more stronger claims to Tajik, Turkmen, & Uzbek lands of Afghanistan because Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan, so a multi-ethnic Afghanistan has no right to claim only Pashtun lands of Pakistan. How about Pakistan claiming Pashtun lands of Afghanistan instead since Pashtuns are being oppressed in Afghanistan, Pashtuns in Pakistan are comparatively much more prosperous, and Afghans are desperate to flee to Pakistan. By the way, Pashtuns are not the only ethnic group divided between two countries, e.g. Azeris are divided between Iran and Azerbaijan, Tajiks between Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Uzbeks between Afghanistan and Uzbekistan, Turkmens between Afghanistan and Turkmenistan, Balochs between Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan, Kurds between Iran, Turkey, Iraq and Syria, Arabs between many different countries, etc.
-- If Durand Line of boundary is artificial, then not only Pashtun lands of Pakistan, but "all" of Pakistan should merge to Afghanistan because the "original" Afghanistan included today's Pakistan and Afghanistan. And if Durand Line of boundary is artificial then how valid are the boundaries between Afghanistan and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, etc.... or all countries of Middle East (Sykes-Picot treaty).. created by former European colonialists such as the British, French, and Russians. Lets not forget the "Great Game" on how the Brits and Ruskies created Afghanistan's boundaries as a buffer zone between them. We know how the Russians (Soviets) created Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan... "In 1886 a Russian army fresh from its conquest of the Oasis of Merv, in today’s Turkmenistan, occupied the Panjdeh Oasis near Herat. It was also the time of The Great Game. Britain immediately warned Russia that any further advance towards Herat would be considered as inimical to British interests. As a consequence of the May 1879 Treaty of Gandamak after the Second Afghan War, Britain took control of Afghanistan’s foreign affairs. After the Panjdeh incident a joint Anglo-Russian boundary commission, without any Afghan participation, fixed the Afghan border with Turkestan, which was the whole of Russian Central Asia, now Kirghizistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Thus as a consequence of the competition between Britain and Russia, a new country, the Afghanistan we know today, was created to serve as the buffer." .....Now on the Afghan-Iran boundaries created by the British/Russians, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, "In 1863 Dost Mohammad retook Herat from Iran with British acquiescence.... The boundary with Iran was firmly delineated in 1904, replacing the ambiguous line made by a British commission in 1872".
-- In 1947 and beyond the Congressite followers of Badshah Khan continued to ask the Gandhi question "The Pathans should have had a choice between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India". The Muslim League had correctly argued that the British had no right to ask that particular question, since they did not ask Nagaland if it wanted to join Burma, nor did they ask Tamil Nadu if it wanted to join Sri Lanka. Thus the Durand Line became the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
-- Knowing the bitter enmity between Tajiks/Hazaras and Pashtuns in Afghanistan, Tajiks/Hazaras will never allow Afghanistan to become 75% Pashtun (from 40%) by only integrating Pashtun areas of Pakistan. The current Tajik-dominated Afghan govt has been oppressing Pashtuns in Afghanistan. In fact there are Tajik bigoted nationalists who are fiercely anti-Pashtun/Afghanistan: http://members.tripod.com/~khorasan/Miscellaneous/why.html And when the Afghan Pashtuns ruled Afghanistan under Taliban they massacred thousands of Hazaras in Mazar-e-Sharif, and others.
-- The word Afghan in the past might have meant Pashtun, but that meaning evolved to another one. Today, an Afghan is defined as only a citizen of present-day Afghanistan regardless of ethnicity. There are countless other examples on how a word's meaning evolves to a different one over time.
-- NWFP of Pakistan is not all Pashtun, large areas of this land are Hindkowi, Shina, Khowari, Gujjar, etc. most linguistically related to Punjabi. Majority of Baluchistan is Baluch who also have bitter rivalry with the Afghans and do not want to be part of Afghanistan.
-- Millions of Pakistani Pashtuns inhabit in the provinces of Punjab and Sindh such as cities of Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad... not to mention millions of Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Since the 1980s the Durand Line has been a porus line for men and material. During the Soviet occupation of Western/Northern Afghanistan, some portions of Eastern/Southern Afghanistan (at least the Pashtun portions) literally became part of free Afghanistan, a satellite of Pakistan. 6 million Afghans came to Pakistan as refugees. More than one million Afghan children were born in Pakistan.
-- Pashtuns have much more in common with Pakistanis than with Afghans (plus there are much more Pashtuns in Pakistan than in Afghanistan). Pashtuns are linguistically Indo-Iranian. Pakistanis are 99% Indo-Iranian whereas Afghans are only 84% Indo-Iranian. Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, Kashmiri, Urdu, Pashto, & Dari are Indo-Iranian languages which means they are related to each other and have a common origin. About 16% of Afghans are linguistically Altaic such as the Uzbeks, Turkomens, etc. These Altaic Afghans are linguistically distinct and unrelated to the Indo-Iranians. Additionally, Pashtuns are racially mostly Caucasoid. Pakistanis are also mostly racially Caucasoid (mixed with a little Dravidoid blood). On the other hand, Afghans are only 66% Caucasoids. Hazaras, Turkomens, Uzbeks, etc. are mostly Mongoloid by race.
Well...when we talk about Race...we mean majoirty of people...just Turks in Turkey are from Turkish race, and Pakistan from Indic race....85% of population of country--Punjabi, Sindi, Saraki, Hindko. 85% of population of Afghanistan are from Afghanian race. As anthropologist Carleton S. Coon in his book...The Races of Europe classifies Afghanian race as asIrano-Afghan race...
Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Aimak 4%, Baloch 2%, and others like Pamiri, Yaqobi 4%
Are major Iranic people….Hazara 9% on other hand are Mongolied but Hazara speak major Iranic language---Dari. Other then Turkic people---Turkmen 3% and Uzbak 9% all the people of Afghanistan are either racially Afghanian or are culturally.
The people of Turkey are not a race. Even the Turkic-speaking majority in Turkey do not consitute a race, but a language grouping. if you look at haplogroup maps of Turkey the main make ups of the population are J1 & J2 (Arab & medditarenian) a pinch of Q (Mongoloid/Turanoid) as well as R1A (east European) and R1B (west European, gained most likely from Turks mixing with Balkan peoples during the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans thats why you can find blond haired people in Turkey).
So in short you cannot claim people to be "one race" just because of a common language.
You just pointed out Hazaras are not Iranic racially, so why are you terming people of Turkey as one race because of language? It doesnt work that way.
your bogus "Irano-Afghan" race does not exist, quoting wikipedia is no good no one trusts that site.
And what exactly makes you think Uzbeks & Turkmens belong to the "Afghanian race" There is no such thing.
There is also no Indic race. It's a language group.
Race is about genetic linage not language otherwise Hazaras and Persians are "one Iranic race"
Since I've had enough of Afghans misusing this forum to spread their propaganda I will post the truth about this issue, which has been manupulated by Pashtun Afghans (the other ethnic gorups are oppossed to Afghan Pashtuns so are the Pakistani Pashtuns whom by the way who dont give two hoots about Afghanistan)
The problem with you Punjabi muslims are that you guys have too much hatred, maybe its b/c of lack of idnetity..you hate Hindus although you share culture, language, race and history with them... you had afghans and then you name your rockets, road and bombs after our Heros and kings. I really feel sorry for you people. Your partation of India—two nation theory was only based on relgion…since punjabi, sindi and other indic people were divided into hindu and muslim…but then why would Pashtons and Baloch be divided from each other? If Pakustan is a muslim country then why she is fallowing the same old british raj policy against muslim Pashtons and Afghanistan?
If Taliban are so good... then lets have the Taliban rule in pakistan...lets ban Mujrah dancing, and Hera Mandi in lahour....and close all the girls school in punjab....make no mistake... Monafeqeens like pakistani elites will be punished in this world and next world.. allah sobah talah promises us muslims this....and just in case it did not happen... we afghans will be there to take our Badel....never forget the old saying...afghans will take their revange even after 100 years!! Pakistan will pay for sheding blood of afghans under their wet dream of stratigic depth(pardon the accent)...mark my words!!!
Now as for as Durrand line concern… can you plz tell if Kafir Parangees are pakistanis father that pakistan could inhertance their treaty against muslim afghanistan? Now as for as actual line….well for your information every sane person in world knows the line does not exist… other then ta bandi ma bandi makan fathan…who’s fahter and forefathers faithfuly served British…ex Gen Babur, Gen Akhtar Rahman, Gen Ayub khan and…. No real pashtons will ever consider himsleve indian muslim(pakistani)!
Here is a greeat poem by Peshwari poet malang jan
Aslee Pashton afghanistan koshee
Ka pashon nawee pakistan koshee
Rough translation---real pashton perfers afghanistan, if he is not a pashton he perfers pakistan.
your bogus "Irano-Afghan" race does not exist, quoting wikipedia is no good no one trusts that site.
And what exactly makes you think Uzbeks & Turkmens belong to the "Afghanian race" There is no such thing.
There is also no Indic race. It's a language group.
Race is about genetic linage not language otherwise Hazaras and Persians are "one Iranic race"
Here are few sources where you can educate yourself.
The Races of Europe by anthropologist Carleton S.
Deniker, J., The Races of Man, pp. 280-284
" Irano-Afganci: Dugackoga lica, high-headed ( high-visoko,head-glava ), hook-nosed ( kukasti nos ) tip, obicno visok, formira principalni elemenat u populaciji Irana, Afganistan, i u Turkomanskoj zemlji , i koji je isto prisutan u Palestini, djelovima Arabije, i sjeverne Afrike. Najvjerovatnije je srodan Kordiranom tipu Neolitika i Bronzanoga Doba.
Irano-Afghan: The long-faced, high-headed, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and some few Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, India, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age.”
H. Irano-Afghanska rasa ( predominanat u Iran i Afganistan, vazan elemenat u Irak, cest [25%] u Turskoj
H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey)
You think by posting some bogus charts and unreliable "sources" here you'll really achieve something? How about posting some haplogroup maps instead?
Scientists use haplogroup maps and letters to determine races, not fancy names like "Irano-Afghan" no such thing exists.
Haplogorups are represented by letters followed by subgroups which are represented by numbers.
ie. haplogroup R can be broken into R1a (east european) R1b (west european) R2 (mostly in india i think) and further on. Their mutations are also represented by letters and numbers.
But instead you post a picture of what appears to be a caucasianoid Afghan claiming they are all like that, when it's a known fact about 20-25 percent of Afghans are mongoloid by race, unrelated to the caucasian population.
Below are pictures of a Pashtun and Uzbek Afghan do they really appear to be of the "same race" to you???
Pashtun Afghan:
Uzbek Afghan:
Instead you are misusing this thread and posted misinformation regarding the durand line and races and have resorted to personal attacks, so dont think there can be any civil discussion.
It always surprises me at the level of outright racism and jingoism that this topic promotes. Someone needs to close this topic before these two nationalists make a joke out of both of their respective countries and peoples.
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
First let me say that there is only one race, the Human Race. The concept of separate racial groups is a social construct.
I've had 2 complaints about this thread. Having looked through it, I can't find anything overly objectionable, yet. I say yet because I do see what others have. This thread is starting to heat up. I don't want to close this thread as has been the normal procedure.
We are all educated intelligent adults here, there is much to debate. In a civilized and productive manner.
For instance, Carleton Coon was a really interesting person. I had the honor of meeting him on several occasions when I was a young teen. However, his ideas on "race" were from a different era.
His last 2 books were not well received, in fact they were torn apart by his contemporaries. Labeling it outright racist in nature.
Point, counterpoint, and it can be heated, as long as it stays civil.
As a Chitrali I bear no ill will towards Afghans. They are my brothers and in most ways we are closer to them than to the Pakistanis of the lowlands.
...But what I have stated about the Kafirs is true. They did not get along with the Afghan State at all, it was only after 1895 and their conversion that they bceame Afghan Nationalists. Kindly refer to the boook "Kafirs of The Hindukush."
Another thing, Chitralis have never considered themselves to be Afghans, despite having political associations with Afghanistan at various times in our history. Ultimately our ruler chose closer ties with Kashmir and eventually the British.
In 1919 (3rd Afghan War) The Chitralis were the only people along the Durand Line who sided with the British. We still have songs about "Alghaani o Khol an Kabul otain anzese" "We will send the Pashtuns bones back to Kabul" from that period.
The Kunar Valley (which down to Asmar belonged to Chitral before 1895) almost fell again in 1919, Shahzaman Khan's advance was stopped at Arandu and Chitral retook Barikot and advanced on Narai.
Once more I do not intend to enflame anyones passions by making these remarks, I am only telling you teh correct history of my region.
Afghans and Pakistanis are equally close to my heart.
Chaaghli Ay Chaagh Mo Korey, Yarkhun O Darband Aa Asum
Surkhum Sthor Ma Mulo, Pong Lakhee Alghaan Aa Asum, Gaah-e-Badakhshan Aa Asum
As a Chitrali I bear no ill will towards Afghans. They are my brothers and in most ways we are closer to them than to the Pakistanis of the lowlands.
I think you mean eastern Afghans and in most specificly Nuristanis would be closest. Uzbek Afghans, Hazara Afghans, and Turkmen Afghans have nothing in common with you.
As for Pashtun Afghans they are also related to you as are Pakistani Pashtuns & Balochis who are from the lowlands by the way.
^ i was very surprised to know that acutally northern pakistans (dards) share very much in comman with rest of Pakistanis (punjabies,sindhis) genetically they are very similar, ofcourse culturaly they might be more iranic, but even pashtuns have more indic genetics they they have persian genetics, infact persian (iranians) have huge amounts of J1 Haplogroup which is arab and J1 is totally missing in Pashtuns, Pakistanis and North Indians. I know every one has different looks and physical features but genetically all of the north indian subcontinent is not very different from each other inluding pashtuns.
^ i was very surprised to know that acutally northern pakistans (dards) share very much in comman with rest of Pakistanis (punjabies,sindhis) genetically they are very similar, ofcourse culturaly they might be more iranic, but even pashtuns have more indic genetics they they have persian genetics, infact persian (iranians) have huge amounts of J1 Haplogroup which is arab and J1 is totally missing in Pashtuns, Pakistanis and North Indians. I know every one has different looks and physical features but genetically all of the north indian subcontinent is not very different from each other inluding pashtuns.
Well culturally speaking, I dont think such a thing as Iranic really exists. Even "indic" there's no such race. The language grouping is most commonly reffered to as Indo-Aryan. I think you mean geography yes Dardic people live in mountainious like the Iranic populations of Pakistan and less dravidian/indian influence in their languages.
my personal thoery was that the Indo-Aryan & Dardic population of Pakistan are descedents of a first wave of Indo-Iranic invaders who settled in Pakistan. This gave them lots of time to mix with the native population and close contact with the dravidians is evident in the Sindhi & Punjabi languages.
Pashtuns & Baloch are descedents of a second wave of invaders who came. Much to my surprise these same theories are shared by historians.
Dardic people in my theory descend from the first wave of Indo-Iranic, like Sindhis & Punjabis as also evident in their language (some linguists consider Dardic & Indo-Aryan to be of the same family) but due to their remote mountainous location they mixed less and came in much less contact with the dravidians and other races.
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Topic: How much of pakistan was part of Afghanistan?
In fact after creation of pakistan as a home for India's muslim, the Chitral regions--called Northen area....is still controlled by central gov...just like FATA. 
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Many of them have integrated on a much better scale vs Afghans of other nationalities (i.e. Turkmen,Tajiks etc..) within Pakistani society.
