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Most Signifigant WWI Battle?

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Most Signifigant WWI Battle?
    Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 01:28
Originally posted by Sparten

Pikeshot, I do want to mention that the QE-Class at Jutland did nit exactly cover themselves with glory, were rather badly manhandled by the Derfflingers.
 
I think you mean the british battlecruisers....Queen Mary and Invinvible were hit and blown up by Derfflinger and perhaps Seydlitz.  The German battlecruisers were in turn badly handled by the Brits, with Derffliger heavily damaged, and put out of action for the rest of the year, Seydlitz flooded and barely limping back to the Jade estuary, and Luetzow so badly damaged she was abandoned and sunk by the Germans.  The culprit here was the flawed thinking of the use of battlecruisers.  When under fire, speed is not armor.
 
The four Queen Elizabeth battleships, along with the rest of the fleet, increased the effectiveness of their gunnery as the day-light battle progressed, and kept the Germans at such long range that they did not threaten the British battle squadrons.  Of course the night action was terribly confused with collisions and much less effective marksmanship. 
 
The longer range gunnery of the Grand Fleet's larger guns also kept the German destroyers and cruisers at arm's length and forced them to launch torpedo attacks at such long range that the torpedoes themselves were running very slowly on their compressed air by the time they reached the British battleships.  The torpedo attacks certainly disrupted the British operations, but they were able to maneuver to avoid the slowed torpedoes. 
 
The British destroyers lost 8 to German 5, but they had more to lose.  The Germans and British both used their torpedo flotillas aggressively, screening and attacking, but the German boats caused little or no damage to the larger units.
 
Other than the suffering of both sides' battlecruisers, Jutland was pretty much a long range gunnery duel, and the larger number of British battleships, with larger guns, kept the perceived German advantage in torpedoes in check, and as a result the High Seas Fleet as well.
 
I just wanted to emphasize that the QE battleships were grand old ladies, and served well in both wars.  Malaya and Warspite had damage at Jutland, but were back with the fleet by July.
 
EDIT:  Before someone jumps on me, yes the Princess Royal also blew up, and the von Der Tann also had heavy damage at Jutland (all battlecruisers).  German ships were designed with better watertight compartmentalization, had wider beams for underwater bulges, etc.  However, the survivability was cancelled out by the numbers of British capital ships, and by their larger guns.
 
     
 
       


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 14-Mar-2008 at 01:38
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 03:13
Originally posted by Tore The Dog

I wounder why these 2 battles is not on the ""list?"" Battle at Tanga and Battle at Kut As Asmara , they tied up a lot of troops , who could be employed elswhere , if Allied forces had won these.
 
 
The Battle of Tanga itself isn't that significant but the East African Campaign as a whole is definitely worth consideration. Lettow-Vorbeck tied down 130,000 Allied troops for four years with a force of 10-20,000. Those Allied troops would've been reeeal helpful at any battle on the Western Front.
 
As for Kut, it wouldn't have been that helpful even if the Allies did win. Yes it was embarassing and cost them quite a few casualties but the war in the desert wasn't going to be won any sooner had they won there. The Turks' weakness was material, not men and the Arab Revolt was responsible for exploiting it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 04:33
Pikeshot, Warspite was reduced to a flaming wreck by Derfflinger, all her guns were out of action her rudder jammed, she scored a dozen hits on the German Battlecruiser and that ship continued to stay in line. Malaya IIRC was hit more often by De GRosse.
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 10:38
Originally posted by Sparten

Pikeshot, Warspite was reduced to a flaming wreck by Derfflinger, all her guns were out of action her rudder jammed, she scored a dozen hits on the German Battlecruiser and that ship continued to stay in line. Malaya IIRC was hit more often by De GRosse.
 
No, she was never a flaming wreck. Badly damaged yes but made it back to port and played a great part in WWII.
 
She lost only 14 dead plus a number of injuries.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 11:04
I know of Warspites fate and her future serviec in the next war. My point is that she came off rather badly against the German Battlecruisers.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 11:35
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by gcle2003

If you're talking about the Sino-Japanese war that started in 1937,


well apparently i don't
 
OK, but the Japanese didn't have the inferior fleet in the 1890s either (I assume you're suggesting they had the inferior fleet but still did not adopt the 'fleet-in-being' strategy, and nevertheless won).
 
Technically, China had two battleships, yes, and Japan 'only' cruisers, but Zhenyuang and Dingyuan were already some 15 years old in a period of fast-changing warship development, and the Japanese cruisers were much newer. Moreover, after the two 'battleships', the next EIGHT ships in order of size engaged at the Yalu were all Japanese. Only two Japanese warships were less than 3,000 tons: ten of the Chinese ones were under 3,000 tons.
 
Of course, Japanese logistics, discipline and leadership were all also superior.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 14:27
Originally posted by Sparten

I know of Warspites fate and her future serviec in the next war. My point is that she came off rather badly against the German Battlecruisers.
 
Well, I would argue that Derfflingers came off rather worse than the QEs at Jutland.  Warspite had her steering knocked out and came under fire during the time it took to jury rig repairs.  The squadron commander ordered her home then, but she had only 14 killed in action.
 
Derfflinger had 157 killed, and was hit over 20 times by battleship fire, and taken out of action (until late in the year).  Luetzow was reduced to a wreck and sunk by the Germans after abandonment.  She received at least two dozen hits from battleships and lost something like 250 crew before being abandoned.  As for the other German CBs, Von Der Tann had all turrets put out of action by British gunfire, and Seydlitz was nothing but a raft, her return to the Jade being a testament to her captain and crew's damage control and seamanship. 
 
Of course the Queen Mary, Princess Royal and Invincible were lost with vastly more KIA, but the argument that the Derfflingers or the other CBs caused heavy damage to the QEs is not supportable.  The British battleships with their 15" guns (and CBs with 13.5" guns) removed the German battlecruisers as factors during the daylight action.  Three British capital ships looked good in the press, but Adm Scheer knew better.
 
Another EDIT:  Smile  Of the ships engaged above (German- 5 CB + Cr/DDs and British- 4 fast BB, 6 CB +Cr. DDs), eight of ten RN capital ships had 13.5 or 15" guns.  The five Germans had 12" or 11" guns. 
 
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 14-Mar-2008 at 14:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 15:18
The Derfflingers took 30 plus heavy hits each, including over a dozen 15" and a dozen more 13.5" hits , while they were only designed to withstand  12" yet they stayed in the battle from the beginning to the end, the Warspite was put out of a battle by shells which it was designed to defend against (11'' and 12", she was rated for 15"). Lutzow was scuttled since she could not naviagate ovetr a sand bar near the base.
 
Point being? German made some damn fine ships. Not to say the Brots were bad, they were first rate, but the amount of punishment those Germanics could take.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 17:10
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
OK, but the Japanese didn't have the inferior fleet in the 1890s either (I assume you're suggesting they had the inferior fleet but still did not adopt the 'fleet-in-being' strategy, and nevertheless won).
 
Technically, China had two battleships, yes, and Japan 'only' cruisers, but Zhenyuang and Dingyuan were already some 15 years old in a period of fast-changing warship development, and the Japanese cruisers were much newer. Moreover, after the two 'battleships', the next EIGHT ships in order of size engaged at the Yalu were all Japanese. Only two Japanese warships were less than 3,000 tons: ten of the Chinese ones were under 3,000 tons.
 
Of course, Japanese logistics, discipline and leadership were all also superior.


yeah thats what i'm saying, the Japanese had the inferior fleet like the US had in the war of 1812. if you look at it, US had no battleships but they had heavier frigates than the British, so we have the same situation again.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 19:26
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
OK, but the Japanese didn't have the inferior fleet in the 1890s either (I assume you're suggesting they had the inferior fleet but still did not adopt the 'fleet-in-being' strategy, and nevertheless won).
 
Technically, China had two battleships, yes, and Japan 'only' cruisers, but Zhenyuang and Dingyuan were already some 15 years old in a period of fast-changing warship development, and the Japanese cruisers were much newer. Moreover, after the two 'battleships', the next EIGHT ships in order of size engaged at the Yalu were all Japanese. Only two Japanese warships were less than 3,000 tons: ten of the Chinese ones were under 3,000 tons.
 
Of course, Japanese logistics, discipline and leadership were all also superior.


yeah thats what i'm saying, the Japanese had the inferior fleet like the US had in the war of 1812. if you look at it, US had no battleships but they had heavier frigates than the British, so we have the same situation again.
 
But the Japanese did not have the inferior fleet as the Yalu proved. In fact the combined tonnage of the Japanese fleet there was greater than the tonnage of the Chinese fleet even though the Chinese had more ships (and two that were nearly three times the size of the others).
 
Gun count is more complicated, but given that the Chinese battleships couldn't fire ahead (one tried bus brought down its own bridge and control facilities), the Japanese were ahead on that too.
 
And, factually, the Japanese did not adopt the same tactics as the Americans in 1812. Instead they went for the decisive fleet-to-fleet encounter, and, given especially there tactical and logistic superiority, won it. The Americans could never have done that.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 14-Mar-2008 at 19:29
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 19:30
yeah still, it only prooved superior because of how the ships were used, the outcome was far from certain.
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  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 22:29
Originally posted by Sparten

The Derfflingers took 30 plus heavy hits each, including over a dozen 15" and a dozen more 13.5" hits , while they were only designed to withstand  12" yet they stayed in the battle from the beginning to the end, the Warspite was put out of a battle by shells which it was designed to defend against (11'' and 12", she was rated for 15"). Lutzow was scuttled since she could not naviagate ovetr a sand bar near the base.
 
Point being? German made some damn fine ships. Not to say the Brots were bad, they were first rate, but the amount of punishment those Germanics could take.
 
The German ships could only take so much 'punishment' because of the poor quality of the British shells.  Frequently the British armour pierceing shells would explode on impact rather than penetrating then exploding.  The British had a problem with shell quality in 1916 on land as well and suffered at the Somme because of it.  Quality wasn't improved until late 1916/1917 when the British and American factories became properly geared up to producing shells in huge numbers.
 
If Jutland had been fought later in the war then the Germans would have lost many more ships.
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  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 22:39
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Sparten

Pikeshot, I do want to mention that the QE-Class at Jutland did nit exactly cover themselves with glory, were rather badly manhandled by the Derfflingers.
 
I think you mean the british battlecruisers....Queen Mary and Invinvible were hit and blown up by Derfflinger and perhaps Seydlitz.  The German battlecruisers were in turn badly handled by the Brits, with Derffliger heavily damaged, and put out of action for the rest of the year, Seydlitz flooded and barely limping back to the Jade estuary, and Luetzow so badly damaged she was abandoned and sunk by the Germans.  The culprit here was the flawed thinking of the use of battlecruisers.  When under fire, speed is not armor.
 
The four Queen Elizabeth battleships, along with the rest of the fleet, increased the effectiveness of their gunnery as the day-light battle progressed, and kept the Germans at such long range that they did not threaten the British battle squadrons.  Of course the night action was terribly confused with collisions and much less effective marksmanship. 
 
The longer range gunnery of the Grand Fleet's larger guns also kept the German destroyers and cruisers at arm's length and forced them to launch torpedo attacks at such long range that the torpedoes themselves were running very slowly on their compressed air by the time they reached the British battleships.  The torpedo attacks certainly disrupted the British operations, but they were able to maneuver to avoid the slowed torpedoes. 
 
The British destroyers lost 8 to German 5, but they had more to lose.  The Germans and British both used their torpedo flotillas aggressively, screening and attacking, but the German boats caused little or no damage to the larger units.
 
Other than the suffering of both sides' battlecruisers, Jutland was pretty much a long range gunnery duel, and the larger number of British battleships, with larger guns, kept the perceived German advantage in torpedoes in check, and as a result the High Seas Fleet as well.
 
I just wanted to emphasize that the QE battleships were grand old ladies, and served well in both wars.  Malaya and Warspite had damage at Jutland, but were back with the fleet by July.
 
EDIT:  Before someone jumps on me, yes the Princess Royal also blew up, and the von Der Tann also had heavy damage at Jutland (all battlecruisers).  German ships were designed with better watertight compartmentalization, had wider beams for underwater bulges, etc.  However, the survivability was cancelled out by the numbers of British capital ships, and by their larger guns.
 
     
 
       
 
I have read that it wasn't just a problem with the British battle crusiers themselves that caused their losses at Jutland buit the way they were used.  Speed COULD be armour witness what happened at the Falklands when the British battlecruisers were used for what they were designed for - killing slower ships with shorter range guns.  Invincible and Inflexible despite not having good armour were easily able to destroy Scharnorst and Genisenau with minial damage.
 
At Jutland the British battlecruisers still had an edge in both speed and range over the German battle cruisers and so could have stood off and engaged the Germans at maximum range.  Whereas the idoit Beatty through away his advantage and intentionally closed with the Germans as fast as he could thus exposing his ships to the German fire.  Further he engaged before the 5th BS arrived whereas if he had stood off he could have waited until the QEs arrived and then had an overwhelming advantage.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 14:09
Patch,
 
What you say does make sense.  The battlecruisers, however, IMO were a flawed concept.  They seem to have presented a temptation to the Admiralty to merely increase the number of big guns in the fleet regardless of their thinner armor.  If they had been intended for running down commerce raiders, etc., maybe they made more sense, but other than HMAS Australia (and the two at Falklands) I don't think any of them were away from the Grand Fleet.  In the Indian Ocean, the raider SMS Emden was taken care of by an Australian cruiser, so they didn't appear to be needed for that duty.
 
Another point not mentioned is the practice in the RN of keeping open the doors separating the barbettes from their magazines.  This facilitated the faster handling of the guns by passing ammunition, but the lighter armor of the CB turrets was suspected of transferring flash from the turrets to the magazines.  Hence entire ships blowing up.  In addition, the cordite used in the RN at the time tended to explode more, and the German cordite to merely burn if ignited (less disastrous unless you were inside the turret - ouch!).
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 15-Mar-2008 at 14:13
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 14:59
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Patch,
 
What you say does make sense.  The battlecruisers, however, IMO were a flawed concept.  They seem to have presented a temptation to the Admiralty to merely increase the number of big guns in the fleet regardless of their thinner armor.  If they had been intended for running down commerce raiders, etc., maybe they made more sense, but other than HMAS Australia (and the two at Falklands) I don't think any of them were away from the Grand Fleet.  In the Indian Ocean, the raider SMS Emden was taken care of by an Australian cruiser, so they didn't appear to be needed for that duty...


I don't agree that the concept of battlecruisers itself was flawed, but just the way they were used.  If you consider fighting an opponent who has only (traditional) cruisers and 'battleships' (i.e. dreadnoughts in this instance), battlecruisers allow you to out range and outgun your oponent's cruisers and then run away from his battleships.  Of course, if you insist on 'slugging it out' with slower more heavily armoured ships, then you're going to get what you deserve.
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