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Balkan Wars

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tzar View Drop Down
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Balkan Wars
    Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 11:33

I will be glad to understand the opinions on the other Balkan nations about these wars and also on everybody who knows something about them. The plan was to be kicked out the Ottoman empire from the Balkans, but what happen - only some months after first war finished, began new (ok I'll confess Bulgaria began the second war)?

Everybody listen only this which understands.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 14:31

It's a pleasure debating with you Tzar, since you don't fall for nationalist traps, so I'll share in short my view of the wars (being of course the Greek point of view). Please oblige me with yours.

So, the Balkan Christian countries, fueled by the ideas of French revolution and obtaining national conscience, began to challenge Ottoman domination and steadily started to claim independence. Primary objective was to gain as much territory as possible, preferably those with strong national communities included. The first Balkan war saw, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro attacking Ottoman Empire. Soon its Balkan armies began to give way and it was reduced to the area around Constantinople. Greatest price was Thessalonica, divided between solid Greek, Jewish, Ottoman and to a lesser degree Slavic populations. Greece offensive was initially towards Monastir, but at the demand of prime minister Velizelos, it was diverted toward Thessalonica to reach it before the advancing Bulgarians. That was achieved, but Monastir was occupied by the Serbs. Bulgarians occupied Thrace.

Bulgarian dissatisfaction over the spoils of war fueled the second Balkan war. Bulgaria attacked Serbs and Greeks and lost. As its armies collapsed, Ottomans and Rumanians entered the war and took territories in Thrace (the first) and to the North (the latter - Dobrutsa?). Greece got Thrace and Serbia got Northern Macedonia region.

These events pushed Bulgaria and Ottoman empire to the side of the Austro Germans (in WW1) and the Nazis (just Bulgaria in WW2) hoping that they'd get these territories back.

These frontiers remain basically the same ever since.

 



Edited by Yiannis
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tzar View Drop Down
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:52

Well I've always tried to not put myself in international arguments but sometimes I get out of my skin when somebody speaks fro something which is not proved... but this is different topic!

To make myself and Bulgarian point of view clear I'll begin little early. After war between Russia and Ottoman empire in 1877-1878 /provoked from Bulgarian uprising from april 1876/ Bulgaria recived independence. First was signed separte peace in San Stefano according to which all Macedonia, Thrace /north - river Marica, south -White sea,  and Ordin Thrace/, south Dobrudja, and area of Nish was given to Bulgaria, but the other Great powers scared from eventually big Russian influence at the region prefered to revised the treaty and was singed another in Berlin, according to which independence Bulgaria became only notrh part of today's Bulgaria and area of Sofia. North Thrace became autonomy republic under Ottoman ruled but with Bulgarian governor. Disappointed from this decision Bulgarians untill end of WWI wanted to restore this Bulgaria.We have never really wanted Thessalonika but just wanted territories populated with Bulgarians and this became national dream....-Mizia,Thrace and Macedonia in one!

Bulgaria was the major culprit for the first and second Balkan wars. After the serial uprising - Ilinden uprising, Bulgaria started a negotiation for an union against Ottomans, the first ally was Serbia, to win it on our side the Bulgarian goverment prmised them west-north Macedonia. Soon to the union has joined Greece and Montenegro. Yes there really was a secret plan betwen Bulgaria and Serbia to divided all Macedonia between them, but there also was and secret plan between Greece and Serbia which aim was so-so the same. After I bakan war finished Bulgaria,Greece and Serbia have felt into disagreement, because of Macedonia. Serbia wanted to be compensated with extra territories in macedonia, because lost Albania /Maybe Italy has insisted Albania to be independent, but according to the plans between Bulgaria and Serbia, Albania was Serbian territory/. Bulgarian government insisted so called argument r, /which arbiter was Russian tsar/ in Macedonia  to be given on Bulgaria and Serbia to be compensated with Greece territories, but Serbia wanted this part of Macedonia and became  closer with Greece, which wasn't agreed with Bulgarian point of view. All this and also some violences under bulgarians became the reason for the second war. Which after Romanian and Ottoman invasions Bulgaria  lost!

Yes this pushed Bulgaria on German side on WWI and this was the mian reason, but in WW2 that wasn't the main reason.All the same Bulgaria didn't attack Greece and when we entered in the war Serbia already have been crushed from Hitler!

 

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  Quote Molossos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2005 at 17:27

The Balkan Wars sealed the ethnic antagonism that had been taking place since the late 19th century in the region of the Balkans so that every state could increase its sphere of influence and embody more territories.

It was also an event that ended the centuries' old Ottoman rule in the area. The imperial army was crushed in almost every battlefield except the Eastern Thrace front where the hardest battles took place, especially around the area of Adrianople, which the Bulgarians tried hard to conquer but failed thanks to the decisive resistance of the Ottoman troops.

I believe it is the most glorious historical period of my nation (Hellas) after the liberation of it, since the territory of the Greek state was almost doubled (before the wars it was 63.211 sq km and after them it became 120.308 sq km). The population boost was also great. The total population of the country was 2.631.952 inhabitants at the dawn of the war while after both of the wars there were 4.718.221 people inside Greek borders.

Important cities were liberated and incorporated to the state such as Ioannina in Epirus, Thessaloniki, Veria, Kozani, Kavala, Serres in Macedonia and almost all the islands of the Aegean Sea. The naval routes were under absolute Greek control and the economy was greatly improved by the seizure of important settlements.

Now, regarding tzar's remark about Bulgaria's involvement in World War II, I would say that it is not decenta at all to claim that you didn't actually attack us. You didn't participate in the operations of the German army in Macedonia, but you invaded right after Greek resistance ceased to exist.

The Red Cross' reports regarding Bulgarian attrocities in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace are shocking. There was a systematic attempt to erase every Greek element in these parts of Greece and the ruthless regime of Bulgaria committed genocide against the local populations of both areas.

 

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 13:10

especially around the area of Adrianople, which the Bulgarians tried hard to conquer but failed thanks to the decisive resistance of the Ottoman troops

Bulgarians conquered Adrianopole!!!!!!

You didn't participate in the operations of the German army in Macedonia, but you invaded right after Greek resistance ceased to exist.

The Red Cross' reports regarding Bulgarian attrocities in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace are shocking. There was a systematic attempt to erase every Greek element in these parts of Greece and the ruthless regime of Bulgaria committed genocide against the local populations of both areas

The Greeks used the same things against Bulgarians in the area of North Thrace! About WWII Bulgarian occupied North Thrace and whole Macedonia, but this was, how to say it - a gift from Hitler, because we joined on him side! Untill 1945 Bulgaria in fact only guarded its border and didn't take part in Hitler's wars in Russia and west front, or Greece! We were more active in the war AGAINST Hitler!!

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  Quote Molossos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 16:02
To claim that Bulgaria was on the Allies' side is a great lie to all humanity.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 10:14
Originally posted by Molossos

The Balkan Wars sealed the ethnic antagonism that had been taking place since the late 19th century in the region of the Balkans so that every state could increase its sphere of influence and embody more territories.

It was also an event that ended the centuries' old Ottoman rule in the area. The imperial army was crushed in almost every battlefield except the Eastern Thrace front where the hardest battles took place, especially around the area of Adrianople, which the Bulgarians tried hard to conquer but failed thanks to the decisive resistance of the Ottoman troops.

I believe it is the most glorious historical period of my nation (Hellas) after the liberation of it, since the territory of the Greek state was almost doubled (before the wars it was 63.211 sq km and after them it became 120.308 sq km). The population boost was also great. The total population of the country was 2.631.952 inhabitants at the dawn of the war while after both of the wars there were 4.718.221 people inside Greek borders.

Important cities were liberated and incorporated to the state such as Ioannina in Epirus, Thessaloniki, Veria, Kozani, Kavala, Serres in Macedonia and almost all the islands of the Aegean Sea. The naval routes were under absolute Greek control and the economy was greatly improved by the seizure of important settlements.

Now, regarding tzar's remark about Bulgaria's involvement in World War II, I would say that it is not decenta at all to claim that you didn't actually attack us. You didn't participate in the operations of the German army in Macedonia, but you invaded right after Greek resistance ceased to exist.

The Red Cross' reports regarding Bulgarian attrocities in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace are shocking. There was a systematic attempt to erase every Greek element in these parts of Greece and the ruthless regime of Bulgaria committed genocide against the local populations of both areas.

 

The Janissaries were quite undiciplined and rebellious, and they couldnt be successful for defending the line of defence in both fields of Bulgaria and Greece. Bulgaria invaded Edirne (Adrianopole), but after the second Balkan war, they lost the battle and Ottoman Empire captured Edirne back.

Also Greeks couldnt conquer the Aegean Islands. These islands were captured by the Italian navy because Ottoman Empire fighted with them to avoid them invading an Ottoman terratorry, Trablusgarp (Libya). The Italians invaded these islands without any fight with the Ottoman, since the empire was busy with fighting with Balkan unification.

But in WWII, the Italians have lost the war and Greece was in the allies with England, so England gifted Greece with the Aegean islands.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 20:50

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

[But in WWII, the Italians have lost the war and Greece was in the allies with England, so England gifted Greece with the Aegean islands.

Wasn;t the Aegean Island in Greek hands since ww2? Are you sure of this..

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 04:32
Originally posted by Molossos

To claim that Bulgaria was on the Allies' side is a great lie to all humanity.

I've never said that Bulgaria was on Allies' side. We were on Hitler side untill 1944 then the Government was overthrew and Bulgaria went on the other side!
Now I said it, but if you are not agree again just search about it!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 04:40
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

[But in WWII, the Italians have lost the war and Greece was in the allies with England, so England gifted Greece with the Aegean islands.

Wasn;t the Aegean Island in Greek hands since ww2? Are you sure of this..

I just told the same thing, these islands were under Greek rule since WWII...

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 20:58
Didn't they control the islands before WWII, after the First World War?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 05:07

Most of the Aegean island were liberated by Greece after the first balkan war and the desicive defeat of the ottoman fleet.

The Dodecanese however were in Italian hands until the end of WW2, if these are the ones you refer to...

 

 

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 10:57
I mean the 12 islands...
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 08:45

The Janissaries were quite undiciplined and rebellious, and they couldnt be successful for defending the line of defence in both fields of Bulgaria and Greece.

There were no Janissaries at that time.

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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 22:09
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

The Janissaries were quite undiciplined and rebellious, and they couldnt be successful for defending the line of defence in both fields of Bulgaria and Greece.

There were no Janissaries at that time.


I think it was in 1826 that the Janissaries were disbanded (to keep it polite).
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