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Statue of Alexander by Lysippos (4th century BC)

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  Quote machaon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Statue of Alexander by Lysippos (4th century BC)
    Posted: 03-Nov-2009 at 03:52
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear Cyrus! Just because someone, somewhere, with some credentials states that the above "bust" is one of Alexander, does not make it so! Just because some "expert" says that this bust is "typical of busts of Alexander", does not make it Alexander but merely "typical" of other busts or representations which have also been called a representation of "Alexander!"

Surety of fact cannot be merely assumed! So, I would "assume" that no parts of the bust were found which said, "this is a representation of Alexander the Great?"

I would have been more convinced if it had "two horns" adorning it!



Nope...I think it is Alexander ...no need of two Horns to convince me...
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2009 at 03:24
Cyrus, Agreed! Circumstances do permit some speculation!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2009 at 02:23
opuslola, I don't talk about that stone bust, I posted it just to show its anastole hairstyle, of course it can not be said for sure that bronze statue was built by Lysippos but I think the location of its discovery and those characteristics are important, it has been found near Susa, the capital of Achaemenid Persian empire, the city which almost lost its importance some years after Alexander's Conquest in 331 BC, seven years later in 324 BC the famous mass marriage ceremony at Susa where Alexander and approximately 90 of his men were married, could be a good reason for erection of this statue.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-Oct-2009 at 04:39
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2009 at 15:07
Dear Cyrus! Just because someone, somewhere, with some credentials states that the above "bust" is one of Alexander, does not make it so! Just because some "expert" says that this bust is "typical of busts of Alexander", does not make it Alexander but merely "typical" of other busts or representations which have also been called a representation of "Alexander!"

Surety of fact cannot be merely assumed! So, I would "assume" that no parts of the bust were found which said, "this is a representation of Alexander the Great?"

I would have been more convinced if it had "two horns" adorning it!

But, it is a very nice bust, non-the-less!

Edited by opuslola - 29-Oct-2009 at 15:08
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2009 at 05:33
As I found "turn of the neck" is one of the characteristics of a Lysippan prototype: http://archaeology.suite101.com/article.cfm/portraits_of_alexander_the_great
 
  • turn of the neck
  • slightly parted lips
  • aspiring glance
  • the anastole (flip of the hair)
  •  
    As you see in this clip:

     
    This statue has been shown as the third face of "Iran, Seven Faces of a Civilization".
     
     
    IRAN: seven faces of a civilization: http://www.sunrisefilmco.com/sevenidxin.html
     
     
     
    anastole - The Greek name for a hairstyle in which the hair is brushed up from the forehead, arranged wreath-like around the face, and typical in portraits of Alexander the Great (356-323)
     
    Greek, Bust of Alexander, stone, found at Thasos


    Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 29-Oct-2009 at 05:50
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      Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 21:09
    Not Persia but Susiana, in fact in the west of the Persian gates, I think Persian cities could be considered as modern cities in those times but Susa was cerainly one of the oldest cities of the world, even older than Babylon
     
    Naturally - Babylon was founded sometime certainly after the collapse of the Akkadian empire in the 2000 BC's, whilst Persia had a wealth of Ziggurant cities, trade cities and cultures long before then. The Gutians who were one of the main factors in the destruction of the Akkadian empire came from beyond the Zagros mountains...
     
    ...Well in any case, I do remember from multiple sources - primary and secondary - that Babylon was his chief base of operations - and naturally Macedonia to some extent (regard that he did sent Alexander IV back there were Perdiccias as his regent, so we can assume that he wasn't, as Arrian suggests, completely turned oriental).
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      Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 19:32

    Amazing that this bronze statue managed to survive - surely the chances are that it would have been placed in a prominent location of a victory, city or somesuch and later melted down for it's metal.

    It can be said that Alexander conquered the Persian empire when he captured Susa, its major capital.

    It's also odd that such an image would have been erected in Persia when Alexander's headquarters were ironically in the "old world" of his empire - Mesopotamia and Babylon (this was where he re-assembled his forces before he died and where many of his supplies were stationed).

    Not Persia but Susiana, in fact in the west of the Persian gates, I think Persian cities could be considered as modern cities in those times but Susa was cerainly one of the oldest cities of the world, even older than Babylon.

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      Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 19:09
    Yes indeed, it seems to have been produced by locals. 


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      Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 17:44

    Statue of Heracles with a lion, Archaeological Museum of Susa
     
    That ones' in bad condition - is it even Greek/Hellenistic? It seems to be in a more Mesopotamian oriented pose, well I suppose it could just be a very eastern-influenced Hellenistic statue...
     
    Again, sorry about my last trollish post


    Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 28-Jan-2008 at 17:45
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      Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 17:37
    Originally posted by Flipper

    Nice one Cyrus...

    Was there any other significant findings surrounding the bronze statue?
     
     

    Statue of Heracles with a lion, Archaeological Museum of Susa
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      Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 16:52

    Amazing that this bronze statue managed to survive - surely the chances are that it would have been placed in a prominent location of a victory, city or somesuch and later melted down for it's metal. The survivial of bronze statues is rare enough in itself, but this - from the personal sculptor of Alexander III "the great" himself is really quite amazing. The quality of that sculpture of beautiful - the quality of the moulding and artistry of the features on Alexander's face is exquisite. I do wonder, however, why the term "slightly twisted" applies to this  perhaps a little more than "slightly"! It's also odd that such an image would have been erected in Persia when Alexander's headquarters were ironically in the "old world" of his empire - Mesopotamia and Babylon (this was where he re-assembled his forces before he died and where many of his supplies were stationed). I can see even from what little remains of this sculture that his pupil - Chares on Lindos - would have been capible of constructing one of the "seven wonders of the ancient world" for the Lycian prince Mausleous.

    Well, at least we know that this was actually an original and has avoided the nasty debate that regards Praxitilies' Hermes from Olympia, which many regard to be a Roman copy of the original, and that the original was taken to a Roman capital, in the manner of the Plataean Serpantine of Constantine (the hydra statue made from the melted down Persian weapons after the victory of Plataea over Xerxes' Persian forces in 479 BC, which was taken back in triumph to constantinople and used in the Hippodrome by the emperor constantine - it's still there in way...). There's another great reason to know that it's an original...it...was...found...in...Persia which perhaps confirms that it wasn't a Roman copy

    Incidentally, this is the sculptor who (apart from that frieze from Heracelum...) has instated the stereotypical "image" of Alexander, no?
     
     
    The Hermes of Praxiteles that I have been going on about
     
    The Plataean Serpantine; just one example of the Romans loving to take statues from famous Greek sites and usually leave behind a replica or nothing
     
    ...oh sorry I've changed the subject, but this topic has allowed me to have a nice rant about classsical art Confused - sorry Cyrus


    Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 28-Jan-2008 at 17:00
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      Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 16:51
    Nice one Cyrus...

    Was there any other significant findings surrounding the bronze statue?


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      Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:29

    Lysippos was the only artist authorized to make Alexanders image, it was believed that none of his works has survived, but finally one of them was found: http://www.nationalmuseumofiran.ir/fa/explor/2/his/honar/party/3/images/2477.jpg (It is already in the National Museum of Iran)

    This bronze statue was found in the city of Malamir, southeast of Susa in the Khuzistan province of Iran, however its neck is a little twisted but it is one of the most beautiful statues which has been found in Iran.

    More info about Lysippos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippus

    During his life Lysippos was the personal sculptor of Alexander the Great. A recently discovered epigram of Posidippus, in the anthology represented in the Milan Papyrus, was inspired by a bronze portrait of Alexander:

    Lysippus, Sikyonian sculptor, daring hand, learned artisan,
    your bronze statue has the look of fire in its eyes,
    that one you made in the form of Alexander. The Persians deserve
    no blame. We forgive cattle for fleeing a lion.

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