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How Xiongnu called themselves?

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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves?
    Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 03:41
You confuse the name of Mongols as a nation with the people who spoke and belonged to the group of Mongolic languages. Mongolic doesn't mean Mongol of the Song dynasty.
 
The fact that certain ancient tribes are called Mongolic doesn't mean that they were Mongols of the 13th century as we know it from the empire of Chenghizkhan. They simply are called Mongolic for the convenience of classification since the language they spoke was related to the language of the Modern Mongols.
 
For the same reasons ancient Tiele and Xiongnu tribes are clasified as Turkic now. At the time when Tiele lived for example nobody even heard the word "Turk" which appeared many centuries later. However Tiele are classified as Turkic tribe because they spoke the language which was related to the language of Turks.
 
Even your own sources say that Kidan are Mongolic, why do you still insist that they were Tungusic?
 
Mongolic is not egual to Mongol as you misunderstood.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Jan-2008 at 04:38
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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 04:40

I do not think I confused.

The following clarifies what my saying:
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 05:54
I'm sorry, but it seems that you don't follow me at all. You links again prove what I repeated to you several times.

Shiwei (Chinese:) is one Ethnic groups in Chinese history, who once reside at the eastern part of Mongolia and Manchuria. It maintains close ties with Donghu. The Mongol people are believed to be originated from it.

It says only that Shiwei were the ancestors of Mongols i.e. they were Mongolic or Proto-Mongol people.

You simply won't be able to find any sources which say that Mongols are Tungusic, those are 2 different groups of people. According to Altaic theory they are within one Altaic languages group according to another this group doesn't exist and Mongols and Tungus are not related to each other at all.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 06:00

This is the comprehensive list of Tungusic languages from Wikipedia, as you can see it doesn't include Mongol, but just emphasizes that Mongolic and Tungusic languages are 2 groups within Altaic family.

 

Tungusic languages

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Tungusic
Geographic
distribution:
Mongolia, Siberia, Manchuria
Genetic
classification
:
Altaic
 Tungusic
Subdivisions:
Northern
Southern
Jurchen-Manchu


Tungusic languages (or Manchu-Tungus languages) are spoken in Eastern Siberia and Manchuria. Although it is a very debated subject, many linguists consider them to be part of the Altaic language phylum, which, if it actually exists as a genetic entity, also includes the Turkic and Mongolic language families. Many Tungusic languages are endangered, and the long-term future of the family is uncertain.

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[edit] Classification

Linguists working on Tungusic have proposed a number of different classifications based on different criteria, including morphological, lexical, and phonological characteristics. One classification which seems favoured over other alternatives is that the Tungusic languages can be divided into a northern branch and a southern branch, with the southern branch further subdivided into southeastern and southwestern groups.

Northern Tungusic

Following languages can be considered dialects or related languages of Evenki

Southern Tungusic

  • Southwest Tungusic (or the Jurchen-Manchu group)

Jurchen-Manchu (Jurchen and Manchu are simply different stages of the same language; in fact, the ethnonym "Manchu" did not come about until 1636 when Emperor Hong Taiji decreed that the term would replace "Jurchen") is the only Tungusic language with a literary form which dates back to at least the mid- to late-1100s; as such it is a very important language for the reconstruction of Proto-Tungusic. The earliest extant text in Jurchen is the Da Jin deshengtuo songbei inscription (The Jin Victory Memorial Stele), which dates from the dading period (1161-1189).

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  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 11:27

Hi Sarmat,

OK.    I agree to you in term of discussion about Tungus. 

But, XiongNu language is different fm Donghu's.... right?

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 12:50
I read somewere that the hunnic language is closest to chuvash turkic

Branch of Turkic spoken by the Khazars & avars
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 15:29
Originally posted by Xianpei

Hi Sarmat,

OK.    I agree to you in term of discussion about Tungus. 

But, XiongNu language is different fm Donghu's.... right?

 
Right. Xiongnu are commonly believed to be Turkic unlike Donghu who were Mongolic.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 15:31
Originally posted by xi_tujue

I read somewere that the hunnic language is closest to chuvash turkic

Branch of Turkic spoken by the Khazars & avars
 
Yes, this is the theory.
 
I would say the language spoken by Khazars and Bulgars. Unfortunately, we still don't know much about the language of Avars.
 
However, Chuvash also bears very strong Finno-Ugric influence.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:17
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I still think it is very likely. Besides, Hunnish language although Turkic still was quite different and more archaic than the later Turkic so IMO we can't disregard this hypo.

 
Proto-Turkic: *Kn

Altaic etymology:

Meaning: people

Russian meaning: народ

Old Turkic: elgn (OUygh.)

Karakhanid: el kn (KB)

Turkish: elgn (Osm. XIV c.)

Middle Turkic: el wa kn (Sangl.), elgn (Pav. C.), elgn (Oghuz-nama), elgn 'goverment, realm' (Ettuhf.)

Comments: VEWT 309, TMN 3,656-7, Лексика 317, EDT 121-122, 725-726 (with doubts).


 
 
First, we have to be very careful with the reconstucted word of the  Proto language.
 
Second, KUN have had the meaning of the SUN, It was one of the basic  words and one of the most important object for the Turkic people, it's less likely it have originally other meaning than SUN. Lest what was the prototurkic word for SUN?  These two meanings (country/people and sun) less likely to have a common root.
 
Third, if the word was used together with EL (COUNTRY), then it's another story. ELKUN could mean the LAND of the KUNS. Later it could be generalized to mean COUNTRY. EL also had the meaning of people, ELKUN also could be generalized to the meaning of people.
 
Anyway, there is no doubt KUN originally meant SUN. HUN could be more archaic Hunnic term with the same meaning. COUNTRY or PEOPLE only could be later expansion of the original meaning.
  
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 19:34
Originally posted by Xianpei

Hi Sarmat,

OK.    I agree to you in term of discussion about Tungus. 

But, XiongNu language is different fm Donghu's.... right?

 
The linguistical term Tungustic came from Donghu. Current Mongolic people mainly can be traced to the ancient Donghu, although the language Mongolic branced out from Tungustic quite early due to Hunnic (Turkic) influence.
 
The term Tunguz can give us another hint for the Oghur/ghur point we are discussing.
 
Tongus was Tonguz/Tonghuz.
 
Ghuz and Ghur were just two dialectical variant of Turkic. (oghur/oghuz) 
 
So Tongus=Tonguz=Tonghuz=Tonghur 
 
Tongus was Donghu.  
 
Hu was Ghur(/Oghur).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 21:56
Originally posted by barbar

 
The linguistical term Tungustic came from Donghu. Current Mongolic people mainly can be traced to the ancient Donghu, although the language Mongolic branced out from Tungustic quite early due to Hunnic (Turkic) influence.
 
The term Tunguz can give us another hint for the Oghur/ghur point we are discussing.
 
Tongus was Tonguz/Tonghuz.
 
Ghuz and Ghur were just two dialectical variant of Turkic. (oghur/oghuz) 
 
So Tongus=Tonguz=Tonghuz=Tonghur 
 
Tongus was Donghu.  
 
Hu was Ghur(/Oghur).
 
 
This is incorrect. The term Tungus/Tungusic comes from the old name for Evenks, who were referred as Tungus before.
 
 
The Evenks were formerly known as tungus. This designation was spread by the Russians, who acquired it from the Yakuts and the Siberian Tatars (in the Yakut language tongus) in the 17th century.
 
 
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 22:50
Cg (Chinese guy) -  "Xiongnu?"
 
Hg (Hun guy) -  "Hu Me?"
 
Cg -  "Yes, you!"
 
Hg -  "Why thanks, you could call me hun big guyWink."
 
Cg - "Evenksually. Only when I get to know you better!"
 
Hg - "I see. You speak in many tongus. In that case I kun understand."
 
Cg - "Shanyu?"
 
Hg - "Yup!"


Edited by Seko - 29-Jan-2008 at 22:54
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 01:13
LOL
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 09:02
Well, you might be right Barbar. But, 'Tungus' is the title given by Tatars to Evenks.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:14
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by barbar

 
The linguistical term Tungustic came from Donghu. Current Mongolic people mainly can be traced to the ancient Donghu, although the language Mongolic branced out from Tungustic quite early due to Hunnic (Turkic) influence.
 
The term Tunguz can give us another hint for the Oghur/ghur point we are discussing.
 
Tongus was Tonguz/Tonghuz.
 
Ghuz and Ghur were just two dialectical variant of Turkic. (oghur/oghuz) 
 
So Tongus=Tonguz=Tonghuz=Tonghur 
 
Tongus was Donghu.  
 
Hu was Ghur(/Oghur).
 
 
This is incorrect. The term Tungus/Tungusic comes from the old name for Evenks, who were referred as Tungus before.
 
 
The Evenks were formerly known as tungus. This designation was spread by the Russians, who acquired it from the Yakuts and the Siberian Tatars (in the Yakut language tongus) in the 17th century.
 
 
 
Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?
 
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation?
 
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:18
Originally posted by Seko

Cg (Chinese guy) -  "Xiongnu?"
 
Hg (Hun guy) -  "Hu Me?"
 
Cg -  "Yes, you!"
 
Hg -  "Why thanks, you could call me hun big guyWink."
 
Cg - "Evenksually. Only when I get to know you better!"
 
Hg - "I see. You speak in many tongus. In that case I kun understand."
 
Cg - "Shanyu?"
 
Hg - "Yup!"
 
Big%20smileBig%20smileBig%20smile
 
"Evenksually" that's the best one.
 
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 22:49
 
Chinese also called the nomadic people in the west of HU (Xiongnu) as Xihu later. Just as the usage of Donghu. That's why Xiongnu, Jie, Di, Xianpei and Qiang were called as WUHU (during WUHULUANHUA (five HUs disturb China) period). Actually Xianpei were Donghu, Qiang were Xihu, and they were not part of HU.
 
I'd like to dig more of the meaning of HU(Oghur).
 
The Chinese Character itself is quite interesting. It is the combination of GU(Ancient) and Yue (Moon).  
 
We have Yuezhi in the west. Yue (Moon) and Zhi/Shi (means family name).
 
After the collapse of Xia (ancesters of Xiongnu), according to the chronicle, one group went to the north (Xiongnu), and another group went to the west (Yuezhi?).
 
This relation also explains Chinese recording about the same culture that Xiongnu and Yuechi possessed.
 
 
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  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2008 at 23:14
Originally posted by barbar

Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?  
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation? 
 
Before you writing your "highly probable" assumption "Tungus=Pig", why don't you do following.
1. check out whether any nomadic people were familiar with "pig"( I mean pig, not boar) in time of Huns and Donghu.
2. find out geographical map of "pig" domistication history of nomadic or arctic people
3. check out since when the word "pig" became word to diminish others. AFAIK, I know word "pig" in mongolian language GAHAI, GAHA  which is also word for boar. Word for wild boar "GAHAI was not diminishing word at all. Even some strong man were addressed as BODON GAHAI BAGATUR- strong as boar, vigorous as boar. Only after the mass introduction of domisticated pig ( pig farm)  in 20th by russians and chinese in Mongolia, locals start using word GAHAI  (pig) to diminish others because Nomads became very familar with bad reputation for dirtiness and gluttony other lesser known qualities of Pig.
 
So I highly doubt about what you wrote
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by barbar

 
Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?
 
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation?
 
Russian researches who did most of the studies on Tungus call this theory absurdously ridiculous. It's totally unlikely that Tungus had any relation to Donghu and especially that Yakuts remembered the "ancient name which was given to Donghu by Huns." Instead this name originates from Tungusic/Evenkian "donkan" or "dunkan" which means "people of Taiga." Simple as that.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 31-Jan-2008 at 05:59
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:08
Originally posted by ProMongol

Originally posted by barbar

Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?  
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation? 
 
Before you writing your "highly probable" assumption "Tungus=Pig", why don't you do following.
1. check out whether any nomadic people were familiar with "pig"( I mean pig, not boar) in time of Huns and Donghu.
2. find out geographical map of "pig" domistication history of nomadic or arctic people
3. check out since when the word "pig" became word to diminish others. AFAIK, I know word "pig" in mongolian language GAHAI, GAHA  which is also word for boar. Word for wild boar "GAHAI was not diminishing word at all. Even some strong man were addressed as BODON GAHAI BAGATUR- strong as boar, vigorous as boar. Only after the mass introduction of domisticated pig ( pig farm)  in 20th by russians and chinese in Mongolia, locals start using word GAHAI  (pig) to diminish others because Nomads became very familar with bad reputation for dirtiness and gluttony other lesser known qualities of Pig.
 
So I highly doubt about what you wrote
 
Then please tell me why PIG was called "Tungus/Tunguz" in Turkic? Even in Hungarian similar variant is used.   I can't find any other etymology, maybe you can help me out here.
 
It's actually constructive to my postulation that Hunnic people encountered PIG later period and gave the name of their foes to this type of animal.  Huns had very strong contact with Chinese that they surely knew these domesticated type.
 
Boar had another word in Turkic, which is Qawan. It is also used to describe the strength in Turkic, but it's another story.
 
When Rouran (ruling tribe was Xianpei, from Donghu) was in power, a group of delegates from Later Hun kingdom in the west came to visit the Khan, and were surprised by their filthiness. Hun delegates noticed that Rouran never washed themselves (While Huns washed themselves at least three times a week) and Rouran washed the dishes with their toungue. They returned and told the king that why they should  pay tribute to such a dirty people. 
 
 
 
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