Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

How Xiongnu called themselves?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves?
    Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:20
Originally posted by barbar

 
Exactly, however a few things to clear up. The character Xiong wasn't the one for "ANGRY", it was just the only Character used for XIONGNU.  So it must be a simple transliteration.
 
Deguo and Faguo don't have those meanings actually, although indeed the characters were chosen that way. Originally Deguo was Deyizhi (Deutch) Gongheguo (republic) and Faguo was Falanxi (France) gongheguo (republic), those were abbrivated ones, just like Meiguo, Yinguo etc.  Simple transliterations.
 
This is correct. However what I meant is not the exact translation, but the idea/contiquity which can come to the Chinese mind while looking at these characters.
 
The Character Xiong in Xiongnu is 匈     as one can see it consists of the 2 elements the one is the middle is actually the character  凶 which  means "fierce." When inventing the character for Xiongnu Chinese could find the central element with more noble meaning, there are enough characters which are pronounced the same but have totally different meanings, but they chose "fierce." Of course when a Chinese speaker sees this character he knows that this is a special character for Xiongnu only. Yet the combination  匈奴 (xiongnu) would authomatically associate with "fierce slaves" for the Chinese mind.
 
The same thing with Faguo, Deguo, Meiguo etc. Of course everybody knows that these are the names for the specific countries, yet looking at the characters would create the associations which I mentioned in my previous post.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 26-Jan-2008 at 05:26
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2008 at 05:27
BTW, What is the proto-Altaic for man?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 19:52
I'm not a fan of Altaic theory, however the following database seems to be quite useful for those who are.
 
 
For the Mongolian "HUN", I got the meanings of SMOKE. RIDE, FLY etc.
 
For English "Person" I got the following:
 
Proto-Altaic: *ki̯úne

Nostratic:

Meaning: person; people, country

Russian meaning: человек; народ, страна

Turkic: *Kn

Mongolian: *kɣn, *-m-

Tungus-Manchu: *kn-

Japanese: *kúní

Comments: KW 249, VEWT 309 (Turk.-Mong.), АПиПЯЯ 294, TMN 3, 656-657 (with criticism). The Mong. form is somewhat difficult: one has to suppose original *knn with velar ( > *kŋn > *kɣn) and labial ( > *kmn) assimilations.
 
Interestingly the Turkic one is used for SUN, not for person. Moreover, with the meaning of SUN, you can't get any reasonable Turkic counterpart.
 
Anyway, the very existance of Proto Altaic is a big question mark.
 
Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:09

So, could it still be that Hun was in fact the original Huns' name for themselves and it was the Turkic Kun. In fact, it seems that the Mongolian word hun was a loan word from Turkic i.e. probably Hunnish language at that point. Moreover, this resource say that Hun is pronounced like this only in Halha and Eastern dialects on Mongolian. Western dialects like Kalmyk also have kun like in Turkic. Regardless of the validity of Altaic theory, that resource showed that Kun/Hun could in hypothetically be the indigenous ethnonym of Huns and it corresponds to Turkic kun.

What do you think barbar?


Edited by Sarmat12 - 27-Jan-2008 at 20:13
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:23
Now back to our topic, the following can shed more light on my belief that Xiongnu called themselves HU, which was in their language Oghur/Ghur.  
 
Oghuzhan legend clearly relates Oghuzhan to the Modun Shanyu (Batur Tengriqut) of Xiongnu.  the legend was wide spread among Oghuz Turks, and was writen in 13th century  into text by Uyghurs.
 
The name shows the meaning that he was the Han of Oghuz.  Before the "r" and "z" turkic seperation, during the Hunnic period, the name could be Oghurhan. The following part of the legend also support this postulation:
 
Oghuzhan said:" I'm the han of the Uyghurs".
 
As  the text was writen by Uyghurs, and the Uyghur and Oghur was almost identical, His words such as "I'm the han of Oghurs" might be changed into the above verse.
 
Actually there was another hint in the legend. When Oghuzhan wanted to fight against his father, a group of people supported and followed him, he called these group of people as Uyghur. The meaning is  that OGHURS WHO GATHERED AROUND THE HAN.  That means Uyghurs were the part of the Oghur people who gathered around the Oghuzhan.
 
So the conclusion is the people under the rule of Oghuzhan (XIONGNU SHANYU) were Oghurs.
 
Legends of course can't be the basis for our historical judgement, but they surely gives a lot of supplementary informations.
 
 
 
  
Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:36
Originally posted by Sarmat12

So, could it still be that Hun was in fact the original Huns' name for themselves and it was the Turkic Kun. In fact, it seems that the Mongolian word hun was a loan word from Turkic i.e. probably Hunnish language at that point. Moreover, this resource say that Hun is pronounced like this only in Halha and Eastern dialects on Mongolian. Western dialects like Kalmyk also have kun like in Turkic. Regardless of the validity of Altaic theory, that resource showed that Kun/Hun could in hypothetically be the indigenous ethnonym of Huns and it corresponds to Turkic kun.

What do you think barbar?
 
Yes, I have also no doubt  the word HUN is related to the KUN, ie the SUN (the son of the sky god).
 
If we dig more from the historical document, Xiongnu trace their forfather to the Chunwei, the son of the last king of XIA, JIE.
 
Chunwei could safely be KUNBEY in Turkic if we reconstruct this Chinese word.
 
Now we can try to look at the Uyghur Emperors titles:
 
Kun tengride qut bolmish alip bilge Qaghan, etc.
 
With the meaning: Be born by the sun god, great wise Han.
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:46

But the resource actually says that Turkic Kun also means people and country and is in fact the same word with modern Mongolian Hun. Why couldn't Hun just mean people? IMO it makes sense.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:50
Originally posted by barbar

  I'm not a fan of Altaic theory, however the following database seems to be quite useful for those who are.
 
 
For the Mongolian "HUN", I got the meanings of SMOKE. RIDE, FLY etc.
Modern Mongolian word for people, man is pronounced as "HUN-XYH", "KUN-КЮН", "HUMUN-XYMYH" depending on the location.  This word "HUN-XYH" used only for "human", not for anything else.
 
about this SMOKE RIDE, FLY- I think it is some mistake on how you input your word. Each has separate words.
 
Originally posted by barbar

 
For English "Person" I got the following:
 
Proto-Altaic: *ki̯úne

Nostratic:

Meaning: person; people, country

Russian meaning: человек; народ, страна

Turkic: *Kn

Mongolian: *kɣn, *-m-

Tungus-Manchu: *kn-

Japanese: *kúní

Comments: KW 249, VEWT 309 (Turk.-Mong.), АПиПЯЯ 294, TMN 3, 656-657 (with criticism). The Mong. form is somewhat difficult: one has to suppose original *knn with velar ( > *kŋn > *kɣn) and labial ( > *kmn) assimilations.
 
Interestingly the Turkic one is used for SUN, not for person. Moreover, with the meaning of SUN, you can't get any reasonable Turkic counterpart.
It seems like very good logical answer to the is linguistically "kn", "hun " which is still in use of Modern Mongolian languages. Most probably Xiongnus called themselves as HUN-man, people which makes good sense. Chinese who heard this word wrote it as HU . After collapse of Xiongnu State ( north and south), remaining Huns who moved to west still carried on the name "HUN".
 
sun gn
-------------------Maybe Huns called themselves as SUN, sons of SUN, Sunny Empire.
 
Attile the Man sounds better than Attila the Sun. it was play of word
 
Originally posted by barbar

 
Anyway, the very existance of Proto Altaic is a big question mark. 
If we disregard "existance of Proto Altaic language" then big question mark applies to language of Huns. What language ( closer to which language of modern world) . Option is only 2,  Mongolic and Turkic. Did Huns speak in Turkic or Mongolic language?
 
1 option is - Mongolic speaking Xianbeis adapted that word "HUN" from turkic speaking Huns.
 
Mongolic speaking Xianbis were living north east , powerful Xiongnu were preventing Xianbeis to move south. With division and weakness of Xiongnu, Xianbis moved south, start struggling with remaining Huns over control of open steppe. Only after 91, when Northern Shangyu finally destroyed by Chinese, Xianbis took the opportuinies and start settling in territories of former Huns. That Xiongnu territory was not empty, there were still 100.000 yurts of Xiongnu without Shangyu. With coming of Xianbis they accepted Xianbei and  regarded themselves as Xianbis, started taking part for Xianbis cause. From this time, Xianbis became more powerful.
I guess 100000 yurt is about half million Xiongnus mixed with Xianbis. That is huge exchange of gene and language. 
 
But what we have here now is only 20 word from Xiongnus. These words can be Mongolic and Turkic .
 
2 option is Xianbis and Xiongnus had common language. So they can easily accept/ communicate each other. We know Xianbis were Mongolic speaking people. So were Xiongnus 
 
Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:54
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Western dialects like Kalmyk also have kun like in Turkic. Regardless of the validity of Altaic theory, that resource showed that Kun/Hun could in hypothetically be the indigenous ethnonym of Huns and it corresponds to Turkic kun.

What do you think barbar?
 
Word HUN in Western dialects of Mongols , such as Kalmyks who are isolated from Mongolia for 500 hundred years is still KUN , in cyrillic КЮН or KYN. It is not big difference at all
Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:07

Indeed, during Tengxiquy time,Xianpei annexed a huge number of the Xiongnu, that's why Mongolic is quite close to Turkic, not Tungustic. 

As for the language of Xiongnu: Weishu 91
 
"高车，盖古赤狄之余种也，初号为狄历，北方以为敕勒，诸夏以为高车、丁零。其语略与匈奴同而时有小异，或云其先匈奴之甥也。"
 
Translation: Gaoche, all the remnants of old Chidi, original name was Dili, in the north known as Chile, among Xias known as Gaoche, Dingling. Their language is same as Xiongnu with small difference, or can be said the nephews of Xiongnu.
 
Gaoche or Tiele tribes were Turkic tribes, no one doubts.
 
Originally I also suspect that Donghu, before were chased by the Xiongnu to the east, was a group which was not different too much from Xiongnu. However I haven't find any source relating these two groups culturally or linguistically. I'd be happy if I can find any.
 
Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:11
Originally posted by Sarmat12

But the resource actually says that Turkic Kun also means people and country and is in fact the same word with modern Mongolian Hun. Why couldn't Hun just mean people? IMO it makes sense.

 
I really couldn't relate the word KUN with the meaning of PERSON in Turkic. It might be la ater expansion of the original meaning, which again lost the meaning.  In Turkic KUN was original word for SUN, I'm quite sure about that.
 
     
Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:28

I still think it is very likely. Besides, Hunnish language although Turkic still was quite different and more archaic than the later Turkic so IMO we can't disregard this hypo.

 
Proto-Turkic: *Kn

Altaic etymology:

Meaning: people

Russian meaning: народ

Old Turkic: elgn (OUygh.)

Karakhanid: el kn (KB)

Turkish: elgn (Osm. XIV c.)

Middle Turkic: el wa kn (Sangl.), elgn (Pav. C.), elgn (Oghuz-nama), elgn 'goverment, realm' (Ettuhf.)

Comments: VEWT 309, TMN 3,656-7, Лексика 317, EDT 121-122, 725-726 (with doubts).

 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
ProMongol View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ProMongol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 23:45

Proto-Mongolian kɣn Query method Match substring

Altaic etymology:

Meaning: person

Russian meaning: человек

Written Mongolian: kmn (L 501)

Middle Mongolian: gu'un (HY 27, SH), komon, kumnɛt (IM), kuw(u)n (MA)

Khalkha: xn (pl. xmǖs), xmǖn ( < WMong.)

Buriat: xn

Kalmuck: kǖn, kmṇ

Ordos: kn, kmǖn (<lit.)

Dongxian: kun

Baoan: kuŋ

Dagur: xuar (Тод. Даг. 178), huare (MD 165)

Shary-Yoghur: kūn

Monguor: kun (SM 211)

Mogol: ZM ku (10-7a), kut ibid.

Comments: KW 246, 249, MGCD 398.

Proto-Mongolian: *kɣn, *-m-
Back to Top
Xianpei View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 17-Oct-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69 		  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 06:38
[QUOTE=ProMongol]

I see. Mongolian "XYH"- HUN is the The name for HUNS. Somehow Mongolians still kept that word in use till now. There must be linguistic connection between donghu> huns> sianbi> kidan> mongol  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DongHu is Tungus, but Huns is not.   For Tungus tribes like Sianbi (Xianbei), Kidan and Mongol, there should be linguistic connection among them.    But, it is quite doubtful there should be between Donghu & Huns.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 07:35
Xianbi, Kidans and Mongols are not Tungusic. They are Mongolic. Mongolic and Tungusic are two different branches of Altaic family. As for Donghu, they are also considered Mongolic and thus they are not Tungus.
 
As for the word Hun, it was shown above that the Turkic anagogues word Kun existed with the same meaning. So. it's possible that Huns called themselves like this with the meaning of 'people.'
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Xianpei View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 17-Oct-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69 		  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:14
They are Tungusic......... !   Pls have a glance into the following, which are self-explanatory:
 
 
Also, Mongols originates from ancient tribe ShiWei, who in turn has root fm DongHu
Secondly, nowadays Chinese tribe called Xibe, who are descendants of Xianbei who went out from present day North West forest and mountains in China, and later moved to the Mongolian land previously occupied by XioungNu in two thousand years before.
Back to Top
xi_tujue View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Atabeg

Joined: 19-May-2006
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 17:24
I though hun or khun met people(man) both in old turkic and mongolian?
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
Back to Top
gok_toruk View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
9 Oghuz

Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 19:10

Barbar, I should say, "hun" in Modern Uighur, meaning "blood" is of Persian origin. The original person word for "blood, spirit" is "xun" (or "khun").

 
Also, the word you mention is "a prefix+kn" in Turkic. The old Turkic word was "elgn" for instance; or the Turkmen form is "ilgn". In middle Turkic, you can even observe "elwakn". And the original Altaic word, itself, has got a suffix: something like "knn". Why? Because of Mongolian "kgn" or "kmn" (which was probably "kbn") or Tungus - Manchu "xunchixin" or "Xunchun".
 
And the Proto - Turkic word for "day; daylight; sun" is "knel" or "kunal". You see the stems are different: even in Altaic: the constructed form for "people" is "kiune" while "daylight; sun" is "gioynu".


Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Jan-2008 at 19:23
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 00:12
Originally posted by Xianpei

They are Tungusic......... !   Pls have a glance into the following, which are self-explanatory:
 
 
 
Unfortunately, Xianpei you didn't read you sources were attentive before placing them.
 
 
Says nothing about Kitan, but is says that:
 
A Tungusic people, the Jurchen, ancestors of the Manchu
 
This is absolutely correct, but I didn't discuss Jurchen in my post. Jurchen indeed were Tungusic unlike Kidans or Donghu
 
However, another article on the same site says:
 
 
From 629 to 648, a reunited China -- under the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618-906) -- destroyed the power of the Eastern Trk north of the Gobi; established suzerainty over the Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people
 
Another your source says which in fact is the pdf copy of the articles of the first webpage, says:
 

The Xianbei were the northern branch of the Donghu (or Tung Hu, the Eastern Hu), a proto-Mongol and/or Tunguz group

I don't agree that they were and/or Tunguz, since they are considered Mongols, but in any case you are not correct , by claiming that they definitely were Tunguz, since this article is uncertain.
 
 
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Xianpei View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 17-Oct-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69 		  Quote Xianpei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 02:16
Hi Sarmat,

Pls have my following points in response to your view:-

1. The word "Mongol" only in-the-first-time appears in  Qiu chu-jie's Book called "The Western Journey Book" during Genjis Khan time.  But Xianbei name is much much older than Mongol.   The article I posted says "Proto- Mongol", it tries to let readers know Mongol is associated with the Xianbei tribes.  (Remarks: Qiu is that famous Taoist master whom Genjis Khan much admired and always strove to invite Qiu to give "hints" on the pursuit of conquring the world and how to rule it.)

2. Donghu is Tunguz; and Shiwei is surely one of Donghu tribes, and from many history books, they say the Mongols (at least the elite Mongols) rooted from Shiwei.   And Wei Shu says " Shiwei is same group of Kitan"  And Kitan origins can be traced back to DongHu.

3. Again, Kitan appears in Tang Dynasty, whilst Mongols, this word appears in Chinese Sung Dynasty.  The same reasoning as in the above 1.   (Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people.   What I interpreted this is : Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongolian people)  and surely that the term Kitan comes earlier than that of Mongol.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.