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How Xiongnu called themselves?

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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves?
    Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:18
old Turkic

pig = Tonguz

as far as I know
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2008 at 21:20
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by barbar

 
Why did Evenks were known as Tungus by Turkic people?
 
Tungus had the meaning of PIG in Turkic, but it wasn't the proto one. It's highly probable that Xiongnu used the term that designates Donghu to the PIG to diminish their strongest rivals. Anyway, the main part of the decendants of the Donghu are known as Tungustic for us now. Can't you make any correlation?
 
Russian researches who did most of the studies on Tungus call this theory absurdously ridiculous. It's totally unlikely that Tungus had any relation to Donghu and especially that Yakuts remembered the "ancient name which was given to Donghu by Huns." Instead this name originates from Tungusic/Evenkian "donkan" or "dunkan" which means "people of Taiga." Simple as that.
 
Sarmat, why don't we focus on the main point in our discussion?
 
The major decendants of the ancient Donghu are present day Tungustic people, then how can these two "totally unlikely to have any relation"?
 
I didn't say Yaqut remembered the ancient name.
 
I didn't say this ancient name was given by Huns, actually in my posts it is quite clear that this is the name given by the Chinese.  
 
How come "People of Taiga" became "donkan"? I'm clearly seeing Dong and Kun(Hun or Hu) terms from the latter, again it's being related to the Donghu. It's not as that simple.
 
Tungus or Tunguz was derived from the Hunnic calling of the Chinese Donghu.  In "r" turkic, it could be Tunghur. Clearly relating Chinese HU with Hunnic Ghur.
 
  


Edited by barbar - 31-Jan-2008 at 21:23
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 00:40
Originally posted by barbar

 
Sarmat, why don't we focus on the main point in our discussion?
 
I don't have anything against focusing on the main point of our discussion. However I can't agree with several hypos which are being proposed.
 
 
Originally posted by barbar

The major decendants of the ancient Donghu are present day Tungustic people, then how can these two "totally unlikely to have any relation"?
 
There are no any proofs for that, except that ridiculous "pig" theory. From the sources that I read about Donghu it clearly follows that their descendants are Mongolic peope and Donghu were Proto-mongols.
 
 
 
Originally posted by barbar

 
I didn't say this ancient name was given by Huns, actually in my posts it is quite clear that this is the name given by the Chinese.  
 
So Chinese gave to Evenks this name? Do I understand you right?
 
Originally posted by barbar

How come "People of Taiga" became "donkan"? I'm clearly seeing Dong and Kun(Hun or Hu) terms from the latter, again it's being related to the Donghu. It's not as that simple.
 
 
This is in Tungus/ Evenk language. And what it means is people of Taiga. If it looks similar to Dong and Kun it doesn't mean that it has the same meaning. There are dozens of these kind of linguistic confusions and I can give you many examples of them.
 
However, my main point is that: 1. Donghu were Proto-mongolic but not Tungusic, 2 The name Tungus comes from the Evenk name "people of Taiga" and doesn't have to do anything with the Turkic name for swine.
 
That's all I want to emphasize.
 
 
  
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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 10:17
Doesn't mean pig "domuz" ?
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 14:29

Sure does Tar Szerend. Domuz is the modern version. Maybe tonguz alludes to those ancesters of the modern pig, the proto-pig, as spoken by the proto-Turks. Embarrassed (Seko humor at its worst).



Edited by Seko - 01-Feb-2008 at 14:29
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 17:06
Ohhhh, I didn't know about "donkan". That was something new to me. I've always really wondered why that should be "tunguz".

Thanks, Sarmat.

By the way Barbar,"ghur" in "uighur" for instance, is just a suffix you can see in many other wordslike"alghyr","sylgyr".Inthisway,"uighur"means"joining".

Assumingittobe"ui+oghur"isjustabitdifficult.


Edited by gok_toruk - 01-Feb-2008 at 17:21
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 22:40
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
 
Originally posted by barbar

The major decendants of the ancient Donghu are present day Tungustic people, then how can these two "totally unlikely to have any relation"?
 
There are no any proofs for that, except that ridiculous "pig" theory. From the sources that I read about Donghu it clearly follows that their descendants are Mongolic peope and Donghu were Proto-mongols.
 
 
Donghu migrated to the east and became known as Xianpei and Wuhuan. They were living in the lands of the present day Tungustic people. Although notable groups of Wuhuan later Xianpei managed to make their way back to the Mongolian steppe later, ethnic mixture  with the local forestic people  surely reached quite high level within these several hundreds of years, and it is no wonder if they were all together known as Donghu for their western neighbours.  You have yet to pove me that the migrated people had nothing to do with the local people.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
 
 
Originally posted by barbar

 
I didn't say this ancient name was given by Huns, actually in my posts it is quite clear that this is the name given by the Chinese.  
 
So Chinese gave to Evenks this name? Do I understand you right?
 
No, you are still unable to understand. Donghu was Chinese name for the people in the east of Xiongnu. Xiongnu adopted this, however with their own way, Donghur.  Because they knew HU was Ghur.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
Originally posted by barbar

How come "People of Taiga" became "donkan"? I'm clearly seeing Dong and Kun(Hun or Hu) terms from the latter, again it's being related to the Donghu. It's not as that simple.
 
 
This is in Tungus/ Evenk language. And what it means is people of Taiga. If it looks similar to Dong and Kun it doesn't mean that it has the same meaning. There are dozens of these kind of linguistic confusions and I can give you many examples of them.
 
 
 
You didn't explain the relation between Don and Taiga.
 
I'm not playing word game. The linguistical links are based on historical records.
 
 
  
 
However, my main point is that: 1. Donghu were Proto-mongolic but not Tungusic, 2 The name Tungus comes from the Evenk name "people of Taiga" and doesn't have to do anything with the Turkic name for swine.
 
That's all I want to emphasize.
 
 
My point is 1. Donghu were among the proto-mongols and also proto-tungus.
2. Tungus came from Dongghur, which was originally Chinese Donghu.  The name later adopted by Hunnic to the PIG. Note in the following the protoTurkic is Dongur.
 
Proto-Turkic: *doŋuŕ

Altaic etymology:

Meaning: pig

Russian meaning: свинья

Old Turkic: toŋuz (OUygh.)

Karakhanid: toŋuz (MK)

Turkish: domuz

Tatar: duŋɣɨz

Middle Turkic: toŋuz (Sangl.)

Uzbek: tọnɣis

Uighur: toŋɣuz

Sary-Yughur: doŋiz

Azerbaidzhan: donuz

Turkmen: doŋuz

Kirghiz: doŋuz

Kazakh: doŋɨz

Noghai: doŋɨz

Balkar: toŋɣuz

Gagauz: domuz

Karaim: toŋɣuz, domuz

Karakalpak: doŋɨz

Salar: toŋas

Kumyk: doŋɣuz  


Edited by barbar - 01-Feb-2008 at 22:42
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:41
Unfortunately, I can't agree with that. It doesn't make sense to me at all, why Xiongnu who were for sure much more familiar with Donghu than Chinese had to adopt Chinese name for this people? 
 
The version about pigs-donghu still seems to me to be just a bad joke.
 
I'm not an expert in Evenk language. I don't know why donkan means people of Taiga. I can just refer you to the sources which say this.
 
However, I can accept that there could be a minor Tungusic element among Donghu. This is totally possible. There was also a sizeble Turkic element in Mongols of the 13th century, for example.
 
But still I believe that Donghu were mainly Mongolic.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 02:42
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Ohhhh, I didn't know about "donkan". That was something new to me. I've always really wondered why that should be "tunguz".

Thanks, Sarmat.

 
You are welcome  Smile
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 20:35
Originally posted by gok_toruk


By the way Barbar, "ghur" in "uighur" for instance, is just a suffix you can see in many other words like"alghyr", "sylgyr". In this way, "uighur" means "joining". 

Assuming it to be "ui+oghur" is just a bit difficult.
 
We have discussed this before, I really don't want to repeat. Since you still have difficulity in understanding,  here we go again.
 
If "ghur" in Turkic is only suffix, then tell me What did Qutighur, Sarighur, utighur mean?
 
Sarighur are the people who became Yellow?
 
What about Onughur?  Some people became ten?
 
What about some Uyghur tribes like Baioghur?
 
We clearly know we had Oghuz tribes, why couldn't we have Oghur tribes? Do you need more proof that Oghur was just a dialectical variant of Oghuz? Is that so difficult to understand?
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 06:35
"Sarighur" is "Sari Uighur"(YellowUighurs) or sometimes even "Sari Yughur"; "Onughur" is "on Uighur" (10 Uighurs),youknow. "Baioghur" is "Bai Uighur" (Great Uighurs). "Qutighur" is "Qut Uighur" (Let's say, what, Luck Uighur = Honor Uighur). "Utighur" is "Ut Uighur" (winning Uighurs).

We've got "onoghuz" too; but clearly they are two words: "on oghuz" (10 Oghuz). "Altoghuz" is "alti oghuz" (6 Oghuz)

I just mean in Turkish or any Central Asian dialect, "Uighur" is justlke "alghyr", "sylgyr", "zgr". You can ask any Turkish or Central Asian forumerhere.

Seko(please),"zgr"is"z+gr".Nowifyouplacetherverb"ui"(tojoin)insteadof "z", you will have"uigur",right?Idon'tknow,maybeI'mwrong.ButIreallyappreciate
this if you could explain a bit about it.


There is no such a word like "people"(intheword"uighur") to think "Sari Uighur" means, for instance, "PEOPLE who became yellow". "Uighur" means just "to join, joining" (there's no people); "Alghyr" means "to take; taking".

You seem to be angry or something. Calm down man...




Edited by gok_toruk - 04-Feb-2008 at 07:13
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 10:42
Originally posted by gok_toruk

"Sarighur" is "Sari Uighur" (Yellow Uighurs) or sometimes even "Sari Yughur"; "Onughur" is "on Uighur" (10 Uighurs), you know. "Baioghur" is "Bai Uighur" (Great Uighurs). "Qutighur" is "Qut Uighur" (Let's say, what, Luck Uighur = Honor Uighur). "Utighur" is "Ut Uighur" (winning Uighurs).

 
I was talking about European oghur tribes (except Baioghur), at that time, Uyghur confederacy weren't formed in the east, and your explanation doesn't make sense. Oghur doesn't equal to Uyghur. Onoghur in the europe weren't the Onuyghurs in the east, although they were both oghur tribes.
 
I'm totally calm. Sometimes we need to discuss linguistical terms in the historical context.    
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 11:07
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Unfortunately, I can't agree with that. It doesn't make sense to me at all, why Xiongnu who were for sure much more familiar with Donghu than Chinese had to adopt Chinese name for this people? 
 
 
 
It's a general term, and it wasn't how DONGHU called themselves. It's not unlikely Xiongnu used similar term as Chinese. In Hanshu, there were a paragraph about Batur Tenriqut and his ministers' dialogue.  In the dialogue, Xiongnu also called Donghu as Donghu not otherwise. Although it was writen by Han historians, it doesn't negate my postulation.   
 
The version about pigs-donghu still seems to me to be just a bad joke.
 
 
You can see from above Turkic dialects that Tongus-Tonguz-Donguz-Dongur-Donghur are all can be just dialectical variant.  We couldn't find the etymological origin of the word, except Chinese DONGHU, as we know HU was used for Ghur and ghuz.
 
Remember, Chinese called Oghuz as WUHU.
 
I'm not an expert in Evenk language. I don't know why donkan means people of Taiga. I can just refer you to the sources which say this.
 
 
I'd be happy if we can find Tongus origin from the Evenk or any other Tungustic languages.  For the moment, I'm quite convinced that it's origin was from Chinese DONGHU.
 
However, I can accept that there could be a minor Tungusic element among Donghu. This is totally possible. There was also a sizeble Turkic element in Mongols of the 13th century, for example.
 
But still I believe that Donghu were mainly Mongolic.
 
Even proto-mongols had sizeable Turkic element if we recall Xianpei annexation of Hun tribes. Mongolic was just a result of Tungustic and Hunnic admixture.
 
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 11:36
Well, you might be right. It's just what I think.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by barbar

I'd be happy if we can find Tongus origin from the Evenk or any other Tungustic languages.  For the moment, I'm quite convinced that it's origin was from Chinese DONGHU.
 


sorry thats hardly convincable. likewise i could say teh word Hun, or Oghur if you wish, comes from the Chinese word HU...
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 22:58
Originally posted by barbar

 
You can see from above Turkic dialects that Tongus-Tonguz-Donguz-Dongur-Donghur are all can be just dialectical variant.  We couldn't find the etymological origin of the word, except Chinese DONGHU, as we know HU was used for Ghur and ghuz.
 
Remember, Chinese called Oghuz as WUHU.
 
 
I'd be happy if we can find Tongus origin from the Evenk or any other Tungustic languages.  For the moment, I'm quite convinced that it's origin was from Chinese DONGHU.
 
 
 
With all due respect, but "we" don't need to look for and find anything. It was already established by the scholars who specifically studied Tungus/Evenks their culture and origins; and clearly established that the name "Tungus"  originated directly from their language and has a original meaning "People of Taiga." It is already discovered and proved.
 
I'm sorry but these Chinese hypos are totally meaningless. I probably could take them into consideration if we assumed that Chinese could take Donghu from Tungusic donkan or Tungus would be a name for Manzhus who were nomades like Donghu and lived later at the same territory where Donghu had settled.
 
However, still I can't understand why Turks would use "swines" as a designation for other people. First of all, no nomades, cultivated swines, secondly it's very unlikely that they would be familiar to that animal to such extent as to use is a degradatory name for others.
Pig was a part of traditional Chinese culture, but definetely not a part of Nomadic culture.
 
Tungus-Evenks is the small tribe of Siberian Taiga hunters. They have a totally natural name for themselves "donkan", in some parts of Siberia they simply call themselves "kan/kun" i.e. people.
 
There is no need to go that far and look for the origin of their name among the name of Mongolic Donghu tribe or ancient Turkic word for pig.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 14:33
Originally posted by gok_toruk



Seko (please), "zgr" is "z+gr". Now if you place ther verb "ui" (to join)instead of "z", you will have "uigur", right? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But I really appreciate 
this if you could explain a bit about it.





 
I think you meant barbar instead of I since he has been the one you have been debating with. If I am mistaken and you actually do want my opinion then let me know. Otherwise "gr" has the connotation of "many" similar to "gr", as in "group of people". For 'zgur', as in your example, a prefix changes it into a different meaning (freewill).
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 20:47
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
With all due respect, but "we" don't need to look for and find anything. It was already established by the scholars who specifically studied Tungus/Evenks their culture and origins; and clearly established that the name "Tungus"  originated directly from their language and has a original meaning "People of Taiga." It is already discovered and proved.
 
I'm sorry but these Chinese hypos are totally meaningless. I probably could take them into consideration if we assumed that Chinese could take Donghu from Tungusic donkan or Tungus would be a name for Manzhus who were nomades like Donghu and lived later at the same territory where Donghu had settled.
 
However, still I can't understand why Turks would use "swines" as a designation for other people. First of all, no nomades, cultivated swines, secondly it's very unlikely that they would be familiar to that animal to such extent as to use is a degradatory name for others.
Pig was a part of traditional Chinese culture, but definetely not a part of Nomadic culture.
 
Tungus-Evenks is the small tribe of Siberian Taiga hunters. They have a totally natural name for themselves "donkan", in some parts of Siberia they simply call themselves "kan/kun" i.e. people.
 
There is no need to go that far and look for the origin of their name among the name of Mongolic Donghu tribe or ancient Turkic word for pig.
 
If we believe in everything our GREAT guys have concluded, then there is really no need  here to debate.
 
You seem like to use "totally", "at all", "absolutely", etc words in your discussions. I'd have refrained from using them so frequently when discussing history.
 
What I want to know, or really want to learn, is how "people of Taiga" became Donkan in Evenk language. I hope you don't mind citing some research works from these Russian guys devoted their lives in studying the Tungustic languages and culture. 
 
If you don't mind, I'd be happy to learn from you how Donkan in turn became or used as Tungus.
 
Am I asking too much?
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 04:29
With great pleasure. Just some of the basic bibliography from the great number of the Russian publications on Tungus:
 
Бурыкин А.А. История и культура эвенов  1992.-
 
Burykin A.A. History and culture of Evens 1992
 
Василевич Г.М. К вопросу о тунгусах и ламутах Северо-Востока в XVII-XVIII вв. // 1958
 
Vasilevich G.M. On the question of Tungus and Lamuts of the North East in 17-18th century 1958
 
Левин М.Г. Этническая антропология и проблемы этногенеза народов Дальнего Востока.- 1958.
 
Levin M.G. Ethnic anthropology and problems of ethnogenesis of the people of the Far East. 1958
 

А. Золотарев НОВЫЕ ДАННЫЕ О ТУНГУСАХ И ЛАМУТАХ XVIII ВЕКА 1938

A. Zolotarev New data about Tungus and Lamuts of XVIII cenury 1938
 
Туголуков В.А. Эвены // Вопросы истории.- 1971.-
Tugolukov V.A. Evens//Questions of history 1971.
 
Спеваковский А.Б. К проблеме этногенеза и ранней этнической истории тунгусов Сибири  1979.
Spevakovskiy A.B. On the problem of ethnogenesis and early ethnic history of Tungus of Siberia 1979

A quote from the article of Zolotarev which you can read online: http://ostrog.ucoz.ru/publikacii/4_16.htm

По общепринятому взгляду, термин тунгус происходит от якутского tongus (тонгус), название, которое якуты применяют к тунгусам до сих пор. Тюркское слово тонгус связывается с корнем, означающим свиное, и переводится как свиновод (см. Пекарский, Э. К вопросу о происхождении слова тунгус.

According to the general view the term "Tungus" originates from Yakut "Tongus," the name which Yakuts allegedly use with regard to Tungus until now. Turkic word Tongus is linked to the core meaning "pig's" and translated as "pig breeder" (look Pekarskiy E. "On the question of the origin of the word "Tungus")

Этнографическое обозрение № 3 4 за 1906 г.; Shirokogoroff, S. The Social Organization of the Northern Tungus, р. 5051. Shanghai. 1929). Для того чтобы объяснить (происхождение этого названия, совершенно неприменимого к тунгусам и ламутам, никогда не разводившим свиней, пускаются в спекуляции о связи термина тонгус, или донгус, с китайским дун-ху названием восточных варваров, во втором и первом тысячелетиях до нашей эры населявших Манчжурию и Монголию. Возможно, тонгус было турецким обозначением для свиноводов тунгху, и предки якутов узнали (!) в северных тунгусах народ, родственный южным тунгусам (тунг-ху) (Shirokogoroff, там же, стр. 51). Подобные научные теории нельзя квалифицировать иначе, как абсурд.

Ethnographic review N 3-4 1906 Shikogoroff S The Social Organization of the Northern Tungus, р. 5051. Shanghai. 1929. In order to explain the origin of this name totally unapplicable to Tungus and Lamuts who never bred pigs the speculations are conducted about the connection of the term "Tongus" with Chinese "Donghu" - the name of the "Eastern barbarian" who in the 2nd and 1st milleniums BC inhabitted Manzhuria and Mongolia. "Perhaps Tongus was the Turkic designation of swine breeders Tonghu and the ancestors of Yakuts recognized (!) in the northern Tungus the people related to the southern Tungus (Tonghu) (Shirokogoff, ibidem p. 51). Such "scientific theories" one can't characterize other than "absurd."

 К тому же теория якутского происхождения термина тунгус игнорирует несомненный исторический факт: русские столкнулись с тунгусами раньше чем с якутами, и уже в первых русских донесениях мы находим термин тунгус, очевидно, не имеющий никакого отношения к турецким языкам. Лично мы склонны связывать термин тунгус с тунгусским донки, донкан, дункан, встречающимся у многих ранних авторов. Если верить Линденау, то последнее переводится как жители сопок, жители тайги.

Besides, "the theory" of Yakutian origin of the term "Tungus" ignores the certain historical fact: Russians encountered Tungus earlier then Yakuts and already in the first Russian reports we we find term "Tungus" definitely having no connection to Turkic languages. We are inclined to link the term "Tungus" to Tungusic "donki, donkan, dunkan" used by many early authors. If we trust Lindenau, the latter is translated as "people of the hills," "people of Taiga."

I gave this citation because you easily can find and check it online. But the same thing is repeated in the other sources I listed above.

Also today I found another interesting hypo about the origin of the word "Tungus," however without substrantial footnotes:

http://nature.baikal.ru/text.shtml?id=113&sec=20

Наименование "тунгус" (как кличка) произошло от кетского тунгускет, что значит "люди трех родов": оленные, конные и собачьи (различая по животному, которым эвенки пользовались для транспорта).

The name Tungus (as a nick name) originates from Ket tungusket meaning "the people of three clans": deer, horse and dog (differentiated based on the animal that Evenks used for transportation).



Edited by Sarmat12 - 05-Feb-2008 at 06:16
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2008 at 21:10
Thanks for your effort. At last we seem to be on the right track in discussion.
 
However, what you have provided can't be taken as a reasonable explanation for the etymology of the Tungus, Instead it's just negating the original hypothesis with very weak arguments. 
 
Their conclution based on the hypo that Tungus in Yaqut meant "pig breeder", actually it just can mean "pig". It can be related to the hygene directly. It can happen that you call a group of people "pigs" even if they have nothing to do with pig breeding. 
 
Another weak point in the argument is that they claimed that Russians met Evenks before Yaquts, and it can be originally "Donkan, Donki....", failing to provide any proof why Tungus was used instead. Why didn't these Russians stick to the original term?
 
You said today you find another hypo in Ket language, clearly telling me that Tungus isn't yet as stamped term as you earlier claimed.
 
We still need to answer why in proto-turkic Donghur was used for Pig, what's the etymology of this term? The only exlanation for the moment is DONGHU.
 
 
 
 
 
   
Either make a history or become a history.
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