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xi_tujue
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Topic: How Xiongnu called themselves? Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 12:50 |
I read somewere that the hunnic language is closest to chuvash turkic
Branch of Turkic spoken by the Khazars & avars
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Xianpei
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 11:27 |
Hi Sarmat,
OK. I agree to you in term of discussion about Tungus.
But, XiongNu language is different fm Donghu's.... right?
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Sarmat
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 06:00 |
This is the comprehensive list of Tungusic languages from Wikipedia, as you can see it doesn't include Mongol, but just emphasizes that Mongolic and Tungusic languages are 2 groups within Altaic family.
Tungusic languages
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tungusic languages (or Manchu-Tungus languages) are spoken in Eastern Siberia and Manchuria. Although it is a very debated subject, many linguists consider them to be part of the Altaic language phylum, which, if it actually exists as a genetic entity, also includes the Turkic and Mongolic language families. Many Tungusic languages are endangered, and the long-term future of the family is uncertain.
//
[edit] Classification
Linguists working on Tungusic have proposed a number of different classifications based on different criteria, including morphological, lexical, and phonological characteristics. One classification which seems favoured over other alternatives is that the Tungusic languages can be divided into a northern branch and a southern branch, with the southern branch further subdivided into southeastern and southwestern groups.
Northern Tungusic
Following languages can be considered dialects or related languages of Evenki
Southern Tungusic
- Southwest Tungusic (or the Jurchen-Manchu group)
Jurchen-Manchu (Jurchen and Manchu are simply different stages of the same language; in fact, the ethnonym "Manchu" did not come about until 1636 when Emperor Hong Taiji decreed that the term would replace "Jurchen") is the only Tungusic language with a literary form which dates back to at least the mid- to late-1100s; as such it is a very important language for the reconstruction of Proto-Tungusic. The earliest extant text in Jurchen is the Da Jin deshengtuo songbei inscription (The Jin Victory Memorial Stele), which dates from the dading period (1161-1189).
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Sarmat
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 05:54 |
I'm sorry, but it seems that you don't follow me at all. You links again prove what I repeated to you several times.
Shiwei (Chinese:室韦) is one Ethnic groups in Chinese history, who once reside at the eastern part of Mongolia and Manchuria. It maintains close ties with Donghu. The Mongol people are believed to be originated from it.
It says only that Shiwei were the ancestors of Mongols i.e. they were Mongolic or Proto-Mongol people.
You simply won't be able to find any sources which say that Mongols are Tungusic, those are 2 different groups of people. According to Altaic theory they are within one Altaic languages group according to another this group doesn't exist and Mongols and Tungus are not related to each other at all.
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Xianpei
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 04:40 |
I do not think I confused.
The following clarifies what my saying:
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Sarmat
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 03:41 |
You confuse the name of Mongols as a nation with the people who spoke and belonged to the group of Mongolic languages. Mongolic doesn't mean Mongol of the Song dynasty.
The fact that certain ancient tribes are called Mongolic doesn't mean that they were Mongols of the 13th century as we know it from the empire of Chenghizkhan. They simply are called Mongolic for the convenience of classification since the language they spoke was related to the language of the Modern Mongols.
For the same reasons ancient Tiele and Xiongnu tribes are clasified as Turkic now. At the time when Tiele lived for example nobody even heard the word "Turk" which appeared many centuries later. However Tiele are classified as Turkic tribe because they spoke the language which was related to the language of Turks.
Even your own sources say that Kidan are Mongolic, why do you still insist that they were Tungusic?
Mongolic is not egual to Mongol as you misunderstood.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Jan-2008 at 04:38
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Xianpei
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 02:16 |
Hi Sarmat,
Pls have my following points in response to your view:-
1. The word "Mongol" only in-the-first-time appears in Qiu chu-jie's Book called "The Western Journey Book" during Genjis Khan time. But Xianbei name is much much older than Mongol. The article I posted says "Proto- Mongol", it tries to let readers know Mongol is associated with the Xianbei tribes. (Remarks: Qiu is that famous Taoist master whom Genjis Khan much admired and always strove to invite Qiu to give "hints" on the pursuit of conquring the world and how to rule it.)
2. Donghu is Tunguz; and Shiwei is surely one of Donghu tribes, and from many history books, they say the Mongols (at least the elite Mongols) rooted from Shiwei. And Wei Shu says " Shiwei is same group of Kitan" And Kitan origins can be traced back to DongHu.
3. Again, Kitan appears in Tang Dynasty, whilst Mongols, this word appears in Chinese Sung Dynasty. The same reasoning as in the above 1. (Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people. What I interpreted this is : Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongolian people) and surely that the term Kitan comes earlier than that of Mongol.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 29-Jan-2008 at 00:12 |
Originally posted by Xianpei
They are Tungusic......... ! Pls have a glance into the following, which are self-explanatory:
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Unfortunately, Xianpei you didn't read you sources were attentive before placing them.
Says nothing about Kitan, but is says that:
A Tungusic people, the Jurchen, ancestors of the Manchu
This is absolutely correct, but I didn't discuss Jurchen in my post. Jurchen indeed were Tungusic unlike Kidans or Donghu
However, another article on the same site says:
From 629 to 648, a reunited China -- under the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618-906) -- destroyed the power of the Eastern Trk north of the Gobi; established suzerainty over the Kitan, a semi-nomadic Mongol people
Another your source says which in fact is the pdf copy of the articles of the first webpage, says:
The Xianbei were the northern branch of the Donghu (or Tung Hu, the Eastern Hu), a proto-Mongol and/or Tunguz group
I don't agree that they were and/or Tunguz, since they are considered Mongols, but in any case you are not correct , by claiming that they definitely were Tunguz, since this article is uncertain.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 19:10 |
Barbar, I should say, "hun" in Modern Uighur, meaning "blood" is of Persian origin. The original person word for "blood, spirit" is "xun" (or "khun").
Also, the word you mention is "a prefix+kn" in Turkic. The old Turkic word was "elgn" for instance; or the Turkmen form is "ilgn". In middle Turkic, you can even observe "elwakn". And the original Altaic word, itself, has got a suffix: something like "knn". Why? Because of Mongolian "kgn" or "kmn" (which was probably "kbn") or Tungus - Manchu "xunchixin" or "Xunchun".
And the Proto - Turkic word for "day; daylight; sun" is "knel" or "kunal". You see the stems are different: even in Altaic: the constructed form for "people" is "kiune" while "daylight; sun" is "gioynu".
Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Jan-2008 at 19:23
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 17:24 |
I though hun or khun met people(man) both in old turkic and mongolian?
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Xianpei
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Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 15:14 |
They are Tungusic......... ! Pls have a glance into the following, which are self-explanatory:
Also, Mongols originates from ancient tribe ShiWei, who in turn has root fm DongHu
Secondly, nowadays Chinese tribe called Xibe, who are descendants of Xianbei who went out from present day North West forest and mountains in China, and later moved to the Mongolian land previously occupied by XioungNu in two thousand years before.
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Sarmat
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Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 07:35 |
Xianbi, Kidans and Mongols are not Tungusic. They are Mongolic. Mongolic and Tungusic are two different branches of Altaic family. As for Donghu, they are also considered Mongolic and thus they are not Tungus.
As for the word Hun, it was shown above that the Turkic anagogues word Kun existed with the same meaning. So. it's possible that Huns called themselves like this with the meaning of 'people.'
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Xianpei
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Posted: 28-Jan-2008 at 06:38 |
[QUOTE=ProMongol] I see. Mongolian "XYH"- HUN is the The name for HUNS. Somehow Mongolians still kept that word in use till now. There must be linguistic connection between donghu> huns> sianbi> kidan> mongol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DongHu is Tungus, but Huns is not. For Tungus tribes like Sianbi (Xianbei), Kidan and Mongol, there should be linguistic connection among them. But, it is quite doubtful there should be between Donghu & Huns.
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ProMongol
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 23:45 |
Proto-Mongolian kɣn Query method Match substring Altaic etymology:
Meaning: person
Russian meaning: человек
Written Mongolian: kmn (L 501)
Middle Mongolian: gu'un (HY 27, SH), komon, kumnɛt (IM), kuw(u)n (MA)
Khalkha: xn (pl. xmǖs), xmǖn ( < WMong.)
Buriat: xn
Kalmuck: kǖn, kmṇ
Ordos: kn, kmǖn (<lit.)
Dongxian: kun
Baoan: kuŋ
Dagur: xuar (Тод. Даг. 178), huare (MD 165)
Shary-Yoghur: kūn
Monguor: kun (SM 211)
Mogol: ZM ku (10-7a), kut ibid.
Comments: KW 246, 249, MGCD 398.
Proto-Mongolian: *kɣn, *-m-
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Sarmat
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:28 |
I still think it is very likely. Besides, Hunnish language although Turkic still was quite different and more archaic than the later Turkic so IMO we can't disregard this hypo.
Proto-Turkic: *Kn
Altaic etymology:
Meaning: people
Russian meaning: народ
Old Turkic: elgn (OUygh.)
Turkish: elgn (Osm. XIV c.)
Middle Turkic: el wa kn (Sangl.), elgn (Pav. C.), elgn (Oghuz-nama), elgn 'goverment, realm' (Ettuhf.)
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barbar
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:11 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
But the resource actually says that Turkic Kun also means people and country and is in fact the same word with modern Mongolian Hun. Why couldn't Hun just mean people? IMO it makes sense. |
I really couldn't relate the word KUN with the meaning of PERSON in Turkic. It might be la ater expansion of the original meaning, which again lost the meaning. In Turkic KUN was original word for SUN, I'm quite sure about that.
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barbar
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 21:07 |
Indeed, during Tengxiquy time,Xianpei annexed a huge number of the Xiongnu, that's why Mongolic is quite close to Turkic, not Tungustic.
As for the language of Xiongnu: Weishu 91
"高车,盖古赤狄之余种也,初号为狄历,北方以为敕勒,诸夏以为高车、丁零。其语略与匈奴同而时有小异,或云其先匈奴之甥也。"
Translation: Gaoche, all the remnants of old Chidi, original name was Dili, in the north known as Chile, among Xias known as Gaoche, Dingling. Their language is same as Xiongnu with small difference, or can be said the nephews of Xiongnu.
Gaoche or Tiele tribes were Turkic tribes, no one doubts.
Originally I also suspect that Donghu, before were chased by the Xiongnu to the east, was a group which was not different too much from Xiongnu. However I haven't find any source relating these two groups culturally or linguistically. I'd be happy if I can find any.
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ProMongol
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:54 |
Originally posted by Sarmat12
Western dialects like Kalmyk also have kun like in Turkic. Regardless of the validity of Altaic theory, that resource showed that Kun/Hun could in hypothetically be the indigenous ethnonym of Huns and it corresponds to Turkic kun.
What do you think barbar? |
Word HUN in Western dialects of Mongols , such as Kalmyks who are isolated from Mongolia for 500 hundred years is still KUN , in cyrillic КЮН or KYN. It is not big difference at all
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ProMongol
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:50 |
Originally posted by barbar
I'm not a fan of Altaic theory, however the following database seems to be quite useful for those who are.
For the Mongolian "HUN", I got the meanings of SMOKE. RIDE, FLY etc. |
Modern Mongolian word for people, man is pronounced as "HUN-XYH", "KUN-КЮН", "HUMUN-XYMYH" depending on the location. This word "HUN-XYH" used only for "human", not for anything else.
about this SMOKE RIDE, FLY- I think it is some mistake on how you input your word. Each has separate words.
Originally posted by barbar
For English "Person" I got the following:
Proto-Altaic: *ki̯úne
Nostratic:
Meaning: person; people, country
Russian meaning: человек; народ, страна
Comments: KW 249, VEWT 309 (Turk.-Mong.), АПиПЯЯ 294, TMN 3, 656-657 (with criticism). The Mong. form is somewhat difficult: one has to suppose original *knn with velar ( > *kŋn > *kɣn) and labial ( > *kmn) assimilations.
Interestingly the Turkic one is used for SUN, not for person. Moreover, with the meaning of SUN, you can't get any reasonable Turkic counterpart. |
It seems like very good logical answer to the is linguistically "kn", "hun " which is still in use of Modern Mongolian languages. Most probably Xiongnus called themselves as HUN-man, people which makes good sense. Chinese who heard this word wrote it as HU . After collapse of Xiongnu State ( north and south), remaining Huns who moved to west still carried on the name "HUN".
sun |
gn | -------------------Maybe Huns called themselves as SUN, sons of SUN, Sunny Empire.
Attile the Man sounds better than Attila the Sun. it was play of word
Originally posted by barbar
Anyway, the very existance of Proto Altaic is a big question mark. |
If we disregard "existance of Proto Altaic language" then big question mark applies to language of Huns. What language ( closer to which language of modern world) . Option is only 2, Mongolic and Turkic. Did Huns speak in Turkic or Mongolic language?
1 option is - Mongolic speaking Xianbeis adapted that word "HUN" from turkic speaking Huns.
Mongolic speaking Xianbis were living north east , powerful Xiongnu were preventing Xianbeis to move south. With division and weakness of Xiongnu, Xianbis moved south, start struggling with remaining Huns over control of open steppe. Only after 91, when Northern Shangyu finally destroyed by Chinese, Xianbis took the opportuinies and start settling in territories of former Huns. That Xiongnu territory was not empty, there were still 100.000 yurts of Xiongnu without Shangyu. With coming of Xianbis they accepted Xianbei and regarded themselves as Xianbis, started taking part for Xianbis cause. From this time, Xianbis became more powerful.
I guess 100000 yurt is about half million Xiongnus mixed with Xianbis. That is huge exchange of gene and language.
But what we have here now is only 20 word from Xiongnus. These words can be Mongolic and Turkic .
2 option is Xianbis and Xiongnus had common language. So they can easily accept/ communicate each other. We know Xianbis were Mongolic speaking people. So were Xiongnus
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Sarmat
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Posted: 27-Jan-2008 at 20:46 |
But the resource actually says that Turkic Kun also means people and country and is in fact the same word with modern Mongolian Hun. Why couldn't Hun just mean people? IMO it makes sense.
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