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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Topic: How did Scythians look like? Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 05:42 |
According to the Iranian Cultural Heritage News Agency (Persian Source), there is almost no doubt that the first Iranian 'Salt Man' is a Scythian.
The article is very interesting, the author mentions that belongings of this man show he was a very important man and there is even this possiblity that he is the same Scythian satrap who has been portrayed on the wall of Persepolis!
I dont know who he means, it is a Scyhtian from the Persepolis:
And it the Scyhtian king Skunkha in the Behistun:
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 10:21 |
Could the article be referring to Skunkha?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 13:37 |
I think Darius didn't kill Skunkha, is it possible that he became a satrap later?
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ramin
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Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 19:15 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I think Darius didn't kill Skunkha, is it possible that he became a satrap later? |
hm...I don't think so.. he was considered as a traitor, so that'd be impossible for him to become a province ruler.
some pictures i found on google of Scythians:
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Rava
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Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 12:23 |
This is reconstruction of how the Scythians looked like in the first half of the 3rd century BC. The "prince" and "princess" were found in Rozanovka 150 km south of Kiev.
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Alparslan
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 04:03 |
They look like very Turkic.
There is no base to claim that they were IE people. The famous Massaget princess was called Tomiris. Eventhough there is a confusion between Scythians and Sakas and Massagets should be included into Sakas, It is so clear that her name is Turkish. The name Tomir which is seen as Temur or Timur later means iron in Turkish.
It is obvious that they were not IE.
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 05:12 |
The name Massagetae has an Iranian etymology, from massya and gata, meaning "fish eaters". According to Herodotus, they were supposed to be "of Scythian nationality" (Book 1.201), practice the drinking of an intoxicant like the Scythians, Sakas, Persians, and Indians (Book 1.202), who as part of their diet did eat fish (Book 1.216), and like the Scythians and Sakas use the sagaris, the battle-axe(Book 1.215), and like the Issedones and other Iranian tribes, sacrifice the aged (Book 1.216). The son of Tomyris, named Spargapises, bears a name similar to that of the king of the Royal Scythians, Spargapithes.
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Alparslan
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 08:37 |
Originally posted by Sharrukin
The name Massagetae has an Iranian etymology, from massya and gata, meaning "fish eaters". According to Herodotus, they were supposed to be "of Scythian nationality" (Book 1.201), |
Not according to Herodotus. Heredotus said that : "By many they are regarded as a Scythian race."
http://www.piney.com/Heredotus1.html translated by George Rawlinson.
We do not know who are those "many". Gokturks were also considered as Scythians by East Romans too.
According to my book of Heredotus he said "there are ALSO ones who said that they are from Scythians."
Originally posted by Sharrukin
practice the drinking of an intoxicant like the Scythians, Sakas, Persians, and Indians (Book 1.202), |
In this part of the book of Heredotus it is told anything about a drink. I think you are talking about opium smell.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
who as part of their diet did eat fish (Book 1.216), and like the Scythians and Sakas use the sagaris, the battle-axe(Book 1.215), and like the Issedones and other Iranian tribes, sacrifice the aged (Book 1.216). (Book 1.202), |
Eating fishes, using battle-axes shows nothing about their ethnic origins. How could this approach be scientific? BUT the word sagar - (is) seems very Turkic.
Heredotus : I - 216
"Milk is what they chiefly drink. The only god they worship is the sun, and to him they offer the horse in sacrifice; under the notion of giving to the swiftest of the gods the swiftest of all mortal creatures."
This is like Turks, sky god, Tengrism. Their culture is completely Turkic.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
The son of Tomyris, named Spargapises, bears a name similar to that of the king of the Royal Scythians, Spargapithes. |
This shows nothing. What do you know about Royal Scythians. But I know that today's Turkmenistan's president name is Sapar Murad.
Let's look at what Heredotus was exactly saying about the matter if he will be taking into consideration.
BOOK IV - 20- http://www.piney.com/Heredotus4.html
" On the opposite side of the Gerrhus is the Royal district, as it is called: here dwells the largest and bravest of the Scythian tribes, which looks upon all the other tribes in the light of slaves. Its country reaches on the south to Taurica, on the east to the trench dug by the sons of the blind slaves, the mart upon the Palus Maeotis, called Cremni (the Cliffs), and in part to the river Tanais. North of the country of the Royal Scythians are the Melanchaeni (Black-Robes), a people of quite a different race from the Scythians."
Taurica is Crimea just north of Black Sea and it is populated by Turks even today despite they have been deriven out by Stalin. Crimean Tatars. The name Taurica is itself a very interesting name but let's say this was only a chance.
Heredotus continues : Book IV-21
"When one crosses the Tanais, one is no longer in Scythia; the first region on crossing is that of the Sauromatae, who, beginning at the upper end of the Palus Maeotis, "
Scythia ends at river Don at north of Black Sea. So beyond Tanais is no more Scythia.
Heredotus continues: IV - 22
"Beyond the Budini, as one goes northward, first there is a desert, seven days' journey across; after which, if one inclines somewhat to the east, the Thyssagetae are reached, a numerous nation quite distinct from any other, and living by the chase..................Adjoining them, and within the limits of the same region, are the people who bear the name of Iyrcae; ..........Beyond these people, a little to the east, dwells a distinct tribe of Scyths, who revolted once from the Royal Scythians, and migrated into these parts. "
So according to Heredotus who was making distinctions of Scythians beyond Tanais such as ones who revolted before. So we can say that Sauromates and others are out of Scyhtia and theye were not considered as Scythians by Heredotus.
By conclusion we do not have any proof to show Massagets who live around Lake Aral as Scythians.
"They were eating fishes, they were using battle axes so they were Iranians....." Are these things proofs? Sorry but this is not scientific.
Edited by Alparslan
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 10:30 |
The famous Massaget princess was called Tomiris. Eventhough there is a confusion between Scythians and Sakas and Massagets should be included into Sakas, It is so clear that her name is Turkish. The name Tomir which is seen as Temur or Timur later means iron in Turkish. |
It is possible that Timur is also a Persian name, we have very ancient Persian names of Tahmoris, the son of Gayomart (the Zoroastrian first man), Tahmineh, the wife of Rustahm (Iran's national hero) or Tahmasp, one of Pishdadian kings. [Tahm (Avestan Taxma) means "Powerful"]
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 14:37 |
Timur means iron in Mongolian. In old Turkish, it is "temir" and today we say "demir"...So it has an Ural-Altaic origin, not I.E...
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Degredado
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 14:48 |
Timor means fear in Latin. One wonders...
Anyhoo, Alparslan, you're the first person I know of who's ever said that Scythians were not Indo-Europeans. Every book, source, etc. says that they're an indo-european people. What is the base of your claim that they were turkic? Is there actually any palpable evidence?
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Rava
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Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 18:43 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
The famous Massaget princess was called Tomiris. Eventhough there is a confusion between Scythians and Sakas and Massagets should be included into Sakas, It is so clear that her name is Turkish. The name Tomir which is seen as Temur or Timur later means iron in Turkish. |
It is possible that Timur is also a Persian name, we have very ancient Persian names of Tahmoris, the son of Gayomart (the Zoroastrian first man), Tahmineh, the wife of Rustahm (Iran's national hero) or Tahmasp, one of Pishdadian kings. [Tahm (Avestan Taxma) means "Powerful"]
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I agree with Cyrus that the root of Queen Tomyris' name (I quoted Rawlison's transl.) was Avestan Taxma, (in latin script appears also in form takma). Even if her name remains male form, she as the widow queen could be obliged to use her housband's name.
TAHM: Brave, valiant
TAMUR: Name of a son of the hero Barzu; shortened form of Tahmuras
TAHMURAS: A strong body; Av. Takma Urupa; name of the second Pishdadian king; son of King Hooshang
Taxmaspda.
TEHMINA: Strong woman; name of hero Rustam's wife and daughter of King of Samang
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MURAT BEY BAYAT
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Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 15:40 |
Scytians are turkic !
See www.lostlanguages.com/scythians
Thank you.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 16:45 |
Rava, Do you know what "Urupa" means? a type of dog? Of course it is possible, because "Asp" also means "Horse" (Tahmasp=Strong Horse).
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Rava
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Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 17:13 |
Greeks thought that Scythians rode big dogs, shaggy and remaining horse. Close to my place there's a reservate of kind of pony called in Polish TARPAN. Note how close is the name to URUPA. (Zool.Equus przewalski) Look up zoology, they claim that it's kirgiz name
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 03:37 |
so you think it is in fact a type of horse? Tarpan is a greyish horse, maybe that was "Sorb Pa" (greyish leg) or "Sorb Asp" (greyish horse).
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Alparslan
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 04:31 |
Originally posted by Rava
Greeks thought that Scythians rode big dogs, shaggy and remaining horse. Close to my place there's a reservate of kind of pony called in Polish TARPAN. Note how close is the name to URUPA. (Zool.Equus przewalski) Look up zoology, they claim that it's kirgiz name |
Why did you surprise that much? Turkic people were always lived in and around Poland.
Here you are example.
Cap used by Polish-Lithuanian Tatars from Napoleon Guard unit in 1812.
http://www.polandbymail.com/get_item_kop21_polish-lithuanian -tatars.htm
Croissant and star
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 05:10 |
I don't want to get off the subject too much, but I looked at the link provided by Alparslan and I noticed that all the Polish Czapka caps are square on top. Does anyone have any idea why they have that unique shape?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 05:36 |
Better examples are the Sassanid coins!
Sassanid Empress Buran
Ardeshir III
Hormizd IV
Kavad II
Hormizd V
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Rava
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Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 06:24 |
Alparslan wrote
Why did you surprise that much? Turkic people were always lived in and around Poland.
Nothing can surprise me in history In fact almost half of Polish written history is based on neighbourhood with the Turks. There are many descendants of Tatars in Poland and some of them cherish etnical and religious tradition. I belive that this cap was made specially to underline and honour this regiment. You know perhaps that all Tatar warriors serving in Polish King's army were adopted to our coats of arms and were nobless equal to our szlachta.
Cyrus wrote:
so you think it is in fact a type of horse? Tarpan is a greyish horse, maybe that was "Sorb Pa" (greyish leg) or "Sorb Asp" (greyish horse).
Tarpan and Przewalski Horse were original habitats of the steppes. Perhaps similar breed of horse was first being domesticed. Note that Przewalski Horse is called Takh in mongolian !!!!.
Avestan Urupa meaning body has its continuation in the semantic of Polish word trup means dead body. This semantic construction had been perhaps following: horse/other source of meat - dead body- rituals.
Within this mate of the primary IE ethymology meaning of tarpan can be traced in Greek word therapn which identifies god with hero through death and had actually meant something like 'ritual substitute' at the time it was borrowed into Greek from Anatolia, probably in the second millennium B.C. Compare Hittite tarpaa-/tarpan(alli)- 'ritual substitute', corresponding formally to Greek theraps/therapn.The applications of the word therapn in ancient Greek poetry are semantically secondary: 'warrior's companion' . (sic!)
Greatest Hindu festival Durga Puja in which God is adored as Mother is preceded by Mahalaya when all the members of the family remember their ancestors. This ritual is called Tarpan.
"Sorb Pa" (greyish leg)
It sounds like the Serbs' etnicon. We know that the Alans wore grey dresses so it would be another trace of Serbian alano-sarmatian origin!
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