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Why Have Muslims Been Hated in The West?

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Poll Question: Why Have Muslims Been Hated in The West?
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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Have Muslims Been Hated in The West?
    Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 06:49
wasnt it because of some movie he made?
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 08:08

Originally posted by eaglecap

Get real!!!!

I realize that Islam has made major contributions in history and it saved many of the classical texts but that does not discount the second class citizen treatment that non-believers recieve.

Are you accusing of them by not inventing democracy 1500 years ego? You cannot judge people, religions by taking today's values into consideration. In fact Islam and Quran was like a revolution for its time. But Muslims could not interpret Quran according to changing conditions they had become more conservatives and stuck into "simple words" of Quran but they could not think more about the real essence of Islam, Quran and more generally religion.

Can we say that Islam see others as second class citizen? No. Even the concept of citizen is a new term. Were villagers in Europe has been treaten as equal citizens by land lords and papacy? Papacy has abused poor people during years by using his power of Christianity. Scientists were facing terrible results since they were saying that world is not flat but spherical. Why? Since Christianity was saying the contrary.  After more relax interpretation of Christianity science and democracy could find a way to develop. This was protestan movement. That is why protestant countries of the north has developed much earlier than Catolic ones. I also remind you that Crusaders of papacy who were acting in the name of Christianity has deserted Ortodox settlements, forced them change their beliefs, massacred all Muslims and Jews of Jarusalem...etc.

On the other hand Ottomans have respected their religion, saved Jews from Spain so that there are Safarad Jews alive today. Ottomans collected extra taxes from non-Muslims, they did not accept Christians and Jews in state affaires until 19th century. Do you want to go to war to die as being a Muslim Turk or deal with trade or other occupation as being a Christian or Jews?    



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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 13:11
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by eaglecap

Get real!!!! I realize that Islam has made major contributions in history and it saved many of the classical texts but that does not discount the second class citizen treatment that non-believers recieve.


Are you accusing of them by not inventing democracy 1500 years ego? You cannot judge people, religions by taking today's values into consideration. In fact Islam and Quran was like a revolution for its time. But Muslims could not interpret Quran according to changing conditions they had become more conservatives and stuck into "simple words" of Quran but they could not think more about the real essence of Islam, Quran and more generally religion.


Can we say that Islam see others as second class citizen? No. Even the concept of citizen is a new term. Were villagers in Europe has been treaten as equal citizens by land lords and papacy? Papacy has abused poor people during years by using his power of Christianity. Scientists were facing terrible results since they were saying that world is not flat but spherical. Why? Since Christianity was saying the contrary. After more relax interpretation of Christianity science and democracy could find a way to develop. This was protestan movement. That is why protestant countries of the north has developed much earlier than Catolic ones. I also remind you that Crusaders of papacy who were acting in the name of Christianity has deserted Ortodox settlements, forced them change their beliefs, massacred all Muslims and Jews of Jarusalem...etc.


On the other hand Ottomans have respected their religion, saved Jews from Spain so that there are Safarad Jews alive today. Ottomans collected extra taxes from non-Muslims, they did not accept Christians and Jews in state affaires until 19th century. Do you want to go to war to die as being a Muslim Turk or deal with trade or other occupation as being a Christian or Jews?    



Nothing you say is new to me! I have studied the history of the region. I have to get back to my school project but I would like to respectfully talk some more about this as time allows. If I go into anymore detail I would like to have sources to support my argument. I do have a history degree so I understand historic methodology and sources. You sound like someone I can respect. There are not many Muslims in this area but I am commited to treat them with respect or any stranger I meet.
I also have to respond to the Mormons first. We have lots and lots of Mormons here and they even have a Temple in Spokane, the nearby city.
Some consider them a cult-- I do not care but I like their moral values!!
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 14:02
Are you accusing of them by not inventing democracy 1500 years ego?

Please explain this comment Alparslan?

As far as I know it was the Greek in the classical period who first practiced democracy as an institution. Later, the Magna carta and Roman law had a major influence on American democracy. The early Germanic tribes had a form of democracy.

Historically when I look at the history of islam, the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics societies all I see is rule by an emperor, a king or a Sultan, with few rights for the common man.
In Orthodoxy the Emperor was God's representative on Earth, this often led to corruption. Sort of like the Kings of Israel- some kings were good and some evil!!
I do not single out Islam because you find a dark side to all faiths!!


Edited by eaglecap
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 15:26
Eaglecap. If you are a student of history and religion, then please explain how the trinity came about. The Jews in history were not taught the trinity. It is a christian creation after Christ. But I won't give you my answers yet. I only ask of your knowledge.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 15:56
I am not a Christain so I think you would have to ask a Mormon, an Orthodox or a born agin Christian about this view. I believe in one God but I don't get involved in dogma or doctrinal differences.
If you would like I can contact a Christian friend who could answer this one but I really do not care about this issue.

I do think the Mormon position is interesting because they believe that God the Father and Jesus have flesh and blood form as well as spiritual- heresy to the mainstream churches.

There are some Christians sects who do not believe in the Trinity. For the fun of it, I use to tune into some black preacher in the south. He would preach about how all the Christains who believe in the Trinity are, "GOING TO HELL BROTHER' PRAZZZZE JESUS!!
sorry about the sarcasm!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 11:58
Originally posted by Degredado

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

They do care? Yeah, these million dollars worth perfect planes, sheltering camps targeted smart missles, ignorant US soldiers killing innocent people on purpose and torturing Iragi people in military camps (opposite behavior for Genoa Congress and HUMANITY), and repeating mean sentences like "crusades" really show how much they care...

All I have to say is: BOSH! The only situation I see as being serious was the Abu Gharib prison abuse, and that has already been corrected. As for the use of the word 'crusade', it has a completely different meaning in the west than it does in Arab countries. Saying crusade to an aran audience is just stupid, not mean (and I don't think Bush was speaking to an arab audience when he said that word). I'm wondering, what does the word 'Jihad' mean to you?

Throughout history, soldiers, warriors, whoever held a weapon, have been usually rapacious brutes. American soldiers are amongst those who are the least like that at all.

No, the soldiers do target civilians. One of the newest things I watched on news about this Iraq issue was that an american soldier killed a defenceless and innocent man in front of a mosque where he was trying to take shelter to protect his daughter from american fire. They shot him because he couldnt communicate with them (as they say).

Show your sources. You should also take into account when one is fighting terrorists that don't wear uniforms, the slightest mistake will have the direst consequences. Think about it, your fighting an enemy that blends in with the populace. What would you do? Would you behave better?

About the Kurd issue... Turks didnt kill Kurds' families. This is even not declared by Kurd terrorist groups. Their wish is to build an independent country in Turkish bordered lands, accepted by all nations in Lausanne Agreement. So their purpose is not to protect the country that feeds them and they belong

I mentioned the Kurds because you wrote:

Well, at least the terrorists have somekind of reason... ( I dont mean they are right, I mean USA kills innocent people for senseless ideology, but these "terrorists" are trying to protect their country from invaders who killed their families! )

In other words, you are implying that the dimwits bombing their Iraqi countrymen were defending their families and nation from invaders. By that logic, shouldn't the same be said about the Kurds?

I am really shocked how passionate you can defend the situation of Iraq invasion and all these things. As everyone see, maybe not seen from Europe or USA, but believe it, we can understand what is happening out there, 500 km away from the city I live, there are violence, ignorancy, sin and emperialism in invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and other American-tortured countries.

They are bombing houses and shelter camps, they are killing innocent civilians in purpose, violently and in front of the world's eyes... Noone can deny it... There are lots of secret photos which are not led by USA to be published anymore, and lots of other reports from Iraq and hostage camps, that show how american torture weaponless husbands, by urinating on him, beating him, making him dance with women clothes and then shotting him from head, in front of his wife and children. This is only an example of a million. Everyday, a lot of violence like this is happening in Iraq, but ignored by civilized European nations who called us barbarians since ancient times...Well, we see their developed humanity and civilization...

The UN can stop Iraq from invading Kuwait, and other countries invading each other. Because these actions are against some nations' goods. But why doesnt it even use any single sanction while Israel is surrounding Jarusalem, which has its name from an old Arabic god, with a stone wall, destroying thousands of poor people's houses, dividing families, and denying international laws? Why can UNESCO help needing children everywhere except Bosnia??? Where are those artificial international laws of the westerners when the situation is against those "masked barbarians"?

Also the ones who say we are too civilisized to deny main human rights anymore, are americans. Do you compare their barbariance with the old armies'? Well, that is quite possible...

How can you define the current situation of Iraq as an enemy of USA? Why are they an enemy? Saddam was an enemy, not Iraqis who even dont have medicine for surviving. USA doesnt have the right to invade and torture Iraq, and nothing can change it.

Also I wasnt saying that Iraqis who are bombing other Iraqi cvilians had a reason. But I mean, who caused this chaos? Certainly, America. Their existance is the main problem in Iraq...

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  Quote lastbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 17:21
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

 

Everyday, a lot of violence like this is happening in Iraq, but ignored by civilized European nations who called us barbarians since ancient times...Well, we see their developed humanity and civilization...

To see uncivilized barbaric nations, we need not look further than Islamic based governments such as Iran. Stoning people to death is Quite barbaric.



Edited by lastbout
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  Quote Emile Boutros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 20:08

It is barbaric to allow people to die and to support fascists ala Saddam Hussien. It is barbaric to chop up women's throats after they feed children of your nation and it is barbaric to call others barbaric when your society executes children and kills babies without remorse. The world is full of barbarians and Iran is not uncivilized or barbaric if you ask me. No more than the US with it's export of torutre or gasing young criminals. The only difference is that the US dresses itself better and Iran is out in the open about it. Islamism is a barbaric movement and so are most militant ideologies.

 

 "Eaglecap. If you are a student of history and religion, then please explain how the trinity came about. The Jews in history were not taught the trinity. It is a christian creation after Christ. But I won't give you my answers yet. I only ask of your knowledge. "

This is because Jesus is God and the Spirit is also of God. There was a meeting of the churches way back when to decide if it was separate or unitary. Most agree that it is one in three forms.  Like water has different phases of matter. I don't know where it came from though; I am not particularly religious (there is no Greek Church where I am and I didnt go when there were churches near me except when I was little). If you google it you can probably find something.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 21:04

Mr. Boutros states:

This is because Jesus is God and the Spirit is also of God. There was a meeting of the churches way back when to decide if it was separate or unitary. Most agree that it is one in three forms.  Like water has different phases of matter. I don't know where it came from though; I am not particularly religious (there is no Greek Church where I am and I didnt go when there were churches near me except when I was little). If you google it you can probably find something.

____________________________________________________________ _______

You can belive anything you want. Yet to make such a blatant statement reflects on your difinitive understanding or lack of understanding the history of Jesus and/or religious texts.  Emporer Constantine ordered the varied churches throughout his empire, 300 plus years after the death of Jesus, to canonize the bible (many books) as being the sole and definitive word on who Jesus was. Unfortunately, thats how the accepted version of Christianity became "gospel" truth.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 13:13
Originally posted by lastbout

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

 

Everyday, a lot of violence like this is happening in Iraq, but ignored by civilized European nations who called us barbarians since ancient times...Well, we see their developed humanity and civilization...

To see uncivilized barbaric nations, we need not look further than Islamic based governments such as Iran. Stoning people to death is Quite barbaric.

I partly agree. The current government of Iran cannot be defined such "humalitarian". But at least they dont try to show themselves different from what they really are...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 13:30
Originally posted by Emile Boutros

It is barbaric to allow people to die and to support fascists ala Saddam Hussien. It is barbaric to chop up women's throats after they feed children of your nation and it is barbaric to call others barbaric when your society executes children and kills babies without remorse. The world is full of barbarians and Iran is not uncivilized or barbaric if you ask me. No more than the US with it's export of torutre or gasing young criminals. The only difference is that the US dresses itself better and Iran is out in the open about it. Islamism is a barbaric movement and so are most militant ideologies.

 

 "Eaglecap. If you are a student of history and religion, then please explain how the trinity came about. The Jews in history were not taught the trinity. It is a christian creation after Christ. But I won't give you my answers yet. I only ask of your knowledge. "

This is because Jesus is God and the Spirit is also of God. There was a meeting of the churches way back when to decide if it was separate or unitary. Most agree that it is one in three forms.  Like water has different phases of matter. I don't know where it came from though; I am not particularly religious (there is no Greek Church where I am and I didnt go when there were churches near me except when I was little). If you google it you can probably find something.

Both of the current governments of America and Iran are "barbarians". But I didnt understand what do you mean by saying " it is barbaric to call others barbaric when your society executes children and kills babies without remorse."If you mean our government does such things, you should know that even the capital punishment doesnt exist in our laws since our government begs Europe to be accepted in their "elite" club.

Also as I live in southern Turkey, very close to "Tarsus", I am familiar with the St. Paulus issue. He lived in Tarsus and researched deeply the ancient eastern (mostly Egyptian) mytology. He was kinda missioner who taught people Christianity, but with his own ideology. There is a "secret history" that tells St. Paulus is originally "Hebrew" and researched the belief of trinity from the ancient cult of "Sirius and Osiris". It was kind of a punishment to Christians by Jews of Hebrew.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 01:03
Originally posted by Seko

Mr. Boutros states/P]

This is because Jesus is God and the Spirit is also of God. There was a meeting of the churches way back when to decide if it was separate or unitary. Most agree that it is one in three forms. Like water has different phases of matter. I don't know where it came from though; I am not particularly religious (there is no Greek Church where I am and I didnt go when there were churches near me except when I was little). If you google it you can probably find something.




____________________________________________________________ _______


You can belive anything you want. Yet to make such a blatant statement reflects on your difinitive understanding or lack of understanding the history of Jesus and/or religious texts. Emporer Constantine ordered the varied churches throughout his empire, 300 plus years after the death of Jesus, to canonize the bible (many books) as being the sole and definitive word on who Jesus was. Unfortunately, thats how the accepted version of Christianity became "gospel" truth.



Seko- My background is history and not liguistics or theology but I know someone who could challenge you on this so I could arrange this if he is willing. What is your educational background and what or who are your sources for this???? His wife is due soon so he may not but I can ask. Although, I hate asking because I will end of telling him to quit preaching his mythology to me but I may agree on some of your points. He is of one those radical Jesus freaks. I know that Emperor Constantine was responsible for cannonizing the Bible but I would have to brush up on this aspect of Byzantine history.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 21:05
Hello eaglecap. I'm just an old history buff that used to spend time in the library reading most anything pertaining to history instead of my then major in psychology. I studied religion out of pure interest also. Don't need credits to learn stuff. It's there for the taking. Not much interest in debating with a radical anything. People can learn the history of Jesus and the Christian religion apart from Christian dogma when it feels right for 'em. It's also there for the taking. One thing I learned about myself though is to throw any preconcieved ideas out the window, when studying material that we were brainwashed to accept and not to question. An open mind does wonders for the soul. I like your gusto. Keep it up! Seems like you appreciate the detailed meainings of things.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 19:04
Why do we cringe when we hear the words Jihad or Holy War?

I want to believe that most Muslims are peaceful but history records evil on all sides.
"The conquest of Syria"

"When abu-Bakr was done the case of those who apostatized, he saw fit to direct his troops against Syria. To this effet he wrote to the people of Makkah at-Taif, aly Yaman, and all the Arabs in Najd and al- Heijaz calling them for a "Holy War" and arousing their desire in it and in the obtainable booty from the Greeks. Accordingly, people, including those actuated by Greed as well as those by the hope of divine remuuneration, hastened to abu-Bakr from all quarters and flocked to al Madinah." (page 343)

source: "Readings in medieval Historiography; Muslim Historiography" by Speros Vyronis jr 1968

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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 03:49
Well, having the muslim right next to your house for centuries. And them attacking you, ransacking cities and villages every years, certainly doesn't help is liking your neightbours.

That's what the Southern French had to deal with for quiet some times. If you don't trust the violence of the fights, just check the impressive defenses the Counts of Toulouse built, like the Cathars' castle (who were built much before the Cathars, as a defense against the muslims) or the city of Carcassonne (and imagine most cities were like this in the past here).
Vae victis!
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2005 at 19:21

The history of empires, religious or not, is a history full of war, animosity, commerce, peace, and whatever else we could name. It is a history of people. Those very same people also used religious beliefs to actualize their potential. Whether that act of fulfillment is viewed as necessary would be best answered by those who created such history. Unfortunately they are dead. Yet in hindsight we judge. Currently we live in a world of our own agendas and biases. Our history is now. What will we actualize?

Personally I like to study the history of religions. I like to check for the origins, the reliability of authorship and how religious movements eventually grew into what they are today.  I have found that the way religions are practiced today have deviated from how they were initially taught. I wonder what those founding fathers of religious movements would think if they were to appear before our eyes today. Would they be amzed at religious growth or at its deviations?

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2005 at 21:46

I havent read most of the posts so forgive me if im being repetitive.

The reason no one really does anything to improve the portrayal of Muslims in the Western world is because just incase we decide to attack one of their nations (Iraq) less people will disapprove. Basically, they want the masses to be ignorant, so they trust their government. Most people that support the war here in the U.S. are completely ignorant of the current situation and the history of the Middle East (there are very educated people that believe in the war, but the ignorant ones are the vast majority, same with the ones that disagree with the war). All they say is "we had to go in before they did something to us". Please, learn why terrorists do what they do. I hate terrorism, but theres a point to it. Terrorism is not a senseless act...just because you dont agree with it doesnt make it a senseless act.

The most frustrating thing is when westerners think EVERYONE from the Middle East is a Muslim Arab. They dont even know the difference between an Arab and a Persian. A lot of people think anyone with brown skin is "towel-head" or "camel-jockey" or some other derrogatory term that they use here. Its very frustrating trying to explain to people here in the States that there are major differences from different regions and nations.

So, i believe that the reason Muslims arent looked upon as an "advanced" people (i wouldnt say hated, thats too extreme, but then again, ive never been to the Central states such as Texas) is because, quite simply, most Americans dont care what happens outside of our 50 states. That is the sad and simple truth.

I'm taking a geography class in college right now, and half the people cant even find France on the map. This is college level. I dont even want to imagine how much trouble they would have with the middle east.

Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

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  Quote The Canadian Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2005 at 12:20

Holy crap!!! No one should hate Muslims or Americans, or in fact anyone. We should be peaceful, loving, caring to all humans. Sure we had problems in this planet, but it is we as humans should solve these problems.

Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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