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Why i am wrong about the Aryan Invasion

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bilal_ali_2000 View Drop Down
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why i am wrong about the Aryan Invasion
    Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 15:57

One of the prime achievements of the IVC people were their system of weights and measures. These weights and measures found in Lothal are the same ones which Kautilya has defined in his Arthashastra

 
-Source-

Bernard Sergent: Gense de lInde, p. 1 13.

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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:02
 
     Most Pakistanis would have played the game of Pittu Garam in their childhood. You bunch together a series of graduated slates into a pile. A player then hold a ball and aims at them. When he disturbe them all the other players run. It is the task of the other players to regather the slates into a pile before the attacker player hits them with the ball. I am not sure about the details (as i played it last a long time ago) but that is the general idea. From the Indus sites these slates haev been found in graduated sizes as used in the game of Pittu Garam still played in Pakistan.      
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:07
        Here is a sindor like pigment in the concerned place in a female Terracotta figurines
 
 
  Here is a modern North Indian womanwaering sindoor 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:21
         Here is criss cross field pattern for growing crops as seen in Mohenjodaro from 2000 B.C
 
Here is the same pattern as seen i a modern field in North India ans a practice which is till seen in Pakistan and India. I myself have seen these patterns all throughout my life here in Pakistan.   
 
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:24
     Here is a figurine excavated from Mohenjodaro in a seemingly greeting position
 
 This tradition still survives till today in moden India. Here are men gretting eachother today
 
 


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 21-Mar-2008 at 16:25
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 16:52
     Here is the picture of the priest king from Mohnejodaro wearing floral carved shawl
 
 
Here is modern Sindhi ajrak (Mohenjodaro is in Sindh)
 
Here is Munir Niazi a famous Pakistani poet wearing an Ajrak
 
Here is more elaborately carved ajrak
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 17:11
        Here are some religious brahmin statues tieing their hair in a bun at the back of their heads. The buns have fallen off but the ribbon which tied the hair at the back in visible 
 
        Here is a Brahmin woman wearing a bun at the back of her head 
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  Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 04:48
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Here is linga cult relic found in Harappa




Fascinating. How do we know the age of this linga? What is the source that it came from IVC and specifically which strata of IVC?
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  Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 04:52
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

        Here is a sindor like pigment in the concerned place in a female Terracotta figurines
 
 
 
 

Would you know if someone has done the analysis of the sindoor and tried to date it independendently? Because if they are vegetable colours Carbon dating should be possible. What is the source of the sindoor figurines? Did the original excavator mentions sindoor in his/her reports?
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 17:50

Here are the bangles excavated from IVC

 
 
 
         Here are the different types of bangles popular in Pakistan today 
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 17:54
       Here are then figurines of women wearing a head gear which looks like a turban
 
 
Here are people from Pakistan wearing the same type of head gear the turban
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by athenas owl

"   I don't get your point. Of course there are going to be a lot of Spanish names in the US because of Spanish presence there. And of course there will be a lot of made up names. The US founded many new cities and towns. And that is jus my point, the newly created towns and sites were not named to a Native American name, but the old name places have a large Native American source. Really you don't expect a town founded today to have a Native American source but far back in time when the Europeans arrived here they called the locations what the Natives called them. And of course since many new sites were founded they had a European source."

My point was that you had a list of the states and DC and had the supposed origin of the names as "Native Amercian"..which a number of them were incorrect.   Spanish is not Native American and Louisiana is not Native American, it is French (after King Loius) as Georgis is named after the British King George.

There were no Native American cities to refound (as there would be in the much more populated and historically much more "advanced" Indus Valley.   Also, the western North American continent was first entered by trappers, missionaries and other small groups, British and French (in the Pacific Northwest we have cities hat are named from the French, the British and the Native American groups...the largest city so named would be Seattle after a famous Native American chief.)) in small numbers who, rather than being conquorers, were on their own. They called the rivers as the Natives did and as other white men followed them, these later groups adopted the same custom.

Had the conquorers come first, who knows how it would have gone. As it is, the biggest river system on the west coast is called the Columbia. So much of the West bears Spanish names, from Californis and all it's great cities, many of the coastal features all the way to the northern border of the United States. And the second is of Spanish origin.   But again that is a European language.   

But bottom line..I just wanted to correct your list as it was wrong..and to point out how many of the Native American names came to stick. And again point out that comparing the heavily populated Indus Valley with the sparsely populated North American continent.   Not that the Native Americans derserved what happened (my great grand mother was Native American), but the comparison is weak.

I'm not in any camp reagrding invasion or migration, but I do believe that the OIT is not workable.   The language trail does not follow.   I'm all for the old Eurocentric paradigm being thrown aside, but folks must be careful to not go to the other extreme in reaction.   Whoever the IE people were, they were not European, they were their own culture, and some of them went west, as some of them went south and east.

 Thank you athens owl for correcting my mistakes. I should have said that people please correct that list but i just forgot. Well i wanted to prove the point that when a population inhabits a region for some time and then another population comes there and takes control of a region then they usually adopt the name of the places and rivers of the local population. This phenomena has occured in quite a few places throughout history the Turks in Anatolia, The Spanish in America, The Portugese in America the Arabs in Spain and so on. The reason that i chose the British in America for this anlysis is because i know English and i can spot that what word constructions are alien to English whereas in the Case of Turkey i didn't knew either Greek or Turkish. In the case of Spain i niether knew Arabic nor Spanish. Therefore i ended up choosing the case of the British in America and almost every word that i identified as being non British was true. However since i was unfamiliar with both Spanish and French i was able to detect that the words were non British but when i thought that they were non British hence Native American they turned out to be either French or Spanish words. So thankyou for correcting me.
So the total word count stands at 50% of state names still a pretty percentage considering that how much displaced were the Native Americans. And that is just the state names. You will also find a huge Native American contribution in place and river names all over the US of A.
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 13:44
Originally posted by ruffian

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Here is linga cult relic found in Harappa




Fascinating. How do we know the age of this linga? What is the source that it came from IVC and specifically which strata of IVC?
         This linga belonged to the Indus age of around 2600 B.C because it was excavated from one of its cities. And we  know that it came from IVC because the guy who excavated it says that it came from IVC from around 2600 B.C.  
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 13:45
Originally posted by ruffian

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

        Here is a sindor like pigment in the concerned place in a female Terracotta figurines
 
 
 
 

Would you know if someone has done the analysis of the sindoor and tried to date it independendently? Because if they are vegetable colours Carbon dating should be possible. What is the source of the sindoor figurines? Did the original excavator mentions sindoor in his/her reports?
        They haev been excavated from an IVC city and therefore it would mean that their age is the same as that of IVC cities which is roughly around 2600 B.C.  
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 00:24
      Sorry for the very very long delay in posts here. As i mentioned in another thread my hard disk was busted and i could not access my data. And right now my mind is occupied in another matter. But i promise that i will continue this thread as soon as i gather myself.   
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 05:30
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Originally posted by Kabob1122



you're confusing the terms aryan and indo-european.

regardless of ur preference, the consensus among language experts is that Hittite is the oldest IE language, and anatolia very far from india
again, OIT fails to address this.
    The only reason that Hittite is being considered as the oldest of IE langauges because of the presence of laryngeal as well as loss of gender distinction as opposed to Sansskrits distinction between genders. As i said that Hittite is very different form all the other IE languages. It has shown a large intake of non IE elements. First about the loss of Gender differentiation. The loss of Gramatical gender is a common phenomenon in IE languages whio have been exposed to a large dose of foreign influence like English and Sanskrit and about the presence of laryngeal it has been hypothesized that the presence of laryngeal like other non IE features of Hittite is due to foreign influence of Semitic languages by many scholars and with the last one being Heinz Kronasser.


This is total nonsense.

The laryngeals were not an innovation of Hittite, Proto-IE had the laryngeals, but in Late PIE (after Hittite separated) they evolved into vowels, so middle PIE *p'hter (the 'h representing a raspy, throaty, H-like sound) became late PIE *pater.

Also, Middle PIE had an animate-inanimate gender system, which Hittite retained. The masculine-feminine-neuter system only evolved in Late PIE
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 02:12
Great post Mr.Bilal. I too believe AIT is wrong.But when I put forward such an idea in another thread I was branded a 'Hindu nationalist"
Nice efforts from your side on the proof side.Clap


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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 09:06
It was confirmed that bilal himself was a "hindu nationalistic" i remember him being so pro hindusim that its not even funny, even more then you. I remember his "iranian were hindus" thread

Edited by balochii - 14-Jul-2010 at 09:12
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 09:10
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

     Here is the picture of the priest king from Mohnejodaro wearing floral carved shawl
 
 
Here is modern Sindhi ajrak (Mohenjodaro is in Sindh)
 
Here is Munir Niazi a famous Pakistani poet wearing an Ajrak
 
Here is more elaborately carved ajrak
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
also, i have always wondered about this statue from IVC, this one doesn't look like a bit local dravdian at all, it almost looks like some thing from persia or something.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 20:56
Now you are coming to the point. Indus valley people were not dravidiannativess.That is what i wanted to say where as you were proposing an Aryan invasion and expulsion of them from Indus valley
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